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Stocknazi
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Joined: June 18, 2004
Posts: 5470
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 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:31 am Post subject: |
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I saw that someone posted that an early 3 piece 36hp generator pulley is larger than the 356 pulley.
How much smaller is the 356 pulley?
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| StockNazi wrote: |
I saw that someone posted that an early 3 piece 36hp generator pulley is larger than the 356 pulley.
How much smaller is the 356 pulley? |
The problem with that question is while the OD of the Porsche pulley is smaller partly due to no flange, what is really important is that the belt rides farther down inside the pulley.
To really get a proper comparison you would need to measure the ratio of how many times the lower pulley will turn the upper. Which in turn would more than likely require buying a different length of belt to work just with the 36 HP pulley and the DH pulley. Plus if you are running 12 volt gen/alt the 36 HP pulley is going to not align up with the lower DH pulley....
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Stocknazi
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Joined: June 18, 2004
Posts: 5470
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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What flange are you refering to?
My early 36hp pulley looks the same as the 356 pictured on page 1 of this thread.
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"When the people are afraid of the government, that's tyranny. But when the government is afraid of the people, that's liberty."
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 26050
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| StockNazi wrote: |
What flange are you refering to?
My early 36hp pulley looks the same as the 356 pictured on page 1 of this thread. |
Later 36 HP gen pulley has same outer flange as 40 HP, 1300, 1500, 1600 ones.
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Jacks
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Joined: July 15, 2006
Posts: 2451
Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| borninabus wrote: |
| the aftermarket 356 pulleys are cast and not stamped steel like the originals. |
Where did this information come from? I have been working on 356 since 1966. I have yet to see a cast pulley fitted to any 356, including models from 1951, to cars with chassis #s that exceeded Porsche's published numbers in 1965. Several thousand different cars, many with original gen pulleys. In fact, the only cast iron gen pulleys that I have ever seen that could have possibly be used on 356 were fitted to '68 to '71 VW campers with the odd longer length 38 amp generators, and the cast piece was only on the inner side, next to gen. Interesting to note that these cast iron pulleys had drill holes on the back side for balancing. Earlier model VW pulleys had weights spot welded on the the flange of the OUTER pulley for balancing. But I digress. The number one problem on 356 pulleys is due to improper shimming. Take out all the shims, and bolt the pulley together. Notice how sloppy the pulleys fit with the nut on tight? Add shims one at a time until the pulleys are tight. Then add 3 more VW, or 2 356, due to
thickness differences. Run-out of the pulleys should be minimal. Excessive run-out can work harden the pulley as the belt goes in and out of adjustment, flexing the pulley. VW pulleys have larger flanges to prevent this. Improper belt installation can easily bend 356 pulleys, so be careful there. Use proper procedure. Bent crank pulleys can create havoc as well. 356 hubs can have issues as well. Some have a relief right next to the flange, allowing a sloppy fit to the inner pulley, allowing misalignment, others are smooth in this area. Note the wear on the flats on the hub opening here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1384776.jpg
If you have a grooved one, put a shim or two on the hub before fitting the
inner pulley half for optimum fittment. Be sure the shims fit flush in the relief at the back side of the pulley. Some may have an OD that is too large!
Someone suggested welding the inner pulley to the hub. You better be sure
it's in the EXACT right position before you pull the trigger. I see no need, if all is well sorted.
Cavitaion? OK, let's go there. Under compression and high speeds, air wil behave as a fluid. Many changes occured during VW/356 production, inluding pulley sizes, upper and lower, and fan sizes/blade count. This needs to be considered for each build.
Welded fans? No question in my mind. A few years ago, I attended a 356 event in Taos, and a fan blew apart while idling AT A STOP LIGHT! Took out the oil cooler, damaged the fan shroud, and chunked a few fins on the 1/2 head. Think about it.
Re: 9.5x888 fan belts for 356? Not.Factory size for all 616 engines is 9.5x825.
I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I will send $100 cash to the first person that sends me a CAST gen pulley for a 616 engine, and pay postage both directions upon verification.
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Jack Staggs
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borninabus 
Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4739
Location: Arizona Highways
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacks wrote: |
| I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I will send $100 cash to the first person that sends me a CAST gen pulley for a 616 engine, and pay postage both directions upon verification. |
buy one yourself from stoddard or pelican 
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Jacks
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006
Posts: 2451
Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| borninabus wrote: |
| Jacks wrote: |
| I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I will send $100 cash to the first person that sends me a CAST gen pulley for a 616 engine, and pay postage both directions upon verification. |
buy one yourself from stoddard or pelican |
Well, I don't have to. I buy from a company that often supplies part to those guys. So far, this has been a banner year for us on broken pulleys, TWO inner ones so far, both due to improper installation, one a VW bus, the other a 912 What a surprise. They were replaced by the exact same parts you referred to, with no problems. We service 200 or so 356s each year. We generally replace 3 or 4 UNBROKEN inner halves a year that have damaged stop slots, from using the wrong tool to hold the pulley from turning while removing the 36 mm nut. Most of these pulleys would still work, but changing the belt on the side of the road would prove to be quite difficult, or they were bent beyond usable standards.
There seems to quite a few experts on 356 pulleys here, but no takers on my offer of $100 cash for a "cast" 356 (not VW) pulley. I'll raise it to $200. Easy money, right? Buy one yourself, and send it to me! 
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thefladge
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Joined: July 25, 2005
Posts: 1294
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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I've been running a Stoddard 356 pulley on my Baja Bug for 7 years without a problem.
The breakage problem is likely caused by an improper installation.
I've seen many stock VW pulleys that have broken, and it's always been caused by the pulley being installed with too few shims.
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prowhistler
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Joined: December 12, 2006
Posts: 43
Location: SilverSpring
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: 356 pulley on a bus |
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Back in the 90s I tried the 356 mod on my 66 with a1750 and baby Webers that ran hot in the summer in DC. I had worked for Pete Peek under Sean Dowdle and the engine ran great, yet... Anyway, I installed and road tested the pulley and returned terrified at the sound the oem fan made so I shelved it.
FF 20 years
68 camper 1776; etc, etc.
I believe that the doghouse fan can outsuck bother the intakes and the carb in a split or early bay. My current engine employs a welded, balanced, and knifedged fan and is virtually silent. Revving the motor by hand produces a rush of air into the open engine lid that is quite palpable. Greater fan speed must IMHO, be accompanied by increased fresh air intake area to have optimum impact.
I believe the most elegant solution would be to fit custom shrouds to the heater boxes that sends the output down and to the rear, isolating their hot air from the fa; A hose connected to the oil cooler output for the same purpose;and replacing the front tin with a reinforced mesh screen to keep out debris. The lowering of resistance will allow the fan to reach it's limits before cavitation... |
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MrPolak
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2004
Posts: 1382
Location: AG ,atnaltA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| thefladge wrote: |
I've been running a Stoddard 356 pulley on my Baja Bug for 7 years without a problem.
The breakage problem is likely caused by an improper installation.
I've seen many stock VW pulleys that have broken, and it's always been caused by the pulley being installed with too few shims. |
My 356 pulley failed. I think was my fault as I didn't re-check belt tension, a stupid thing to do. Will buy another one in a few weeks for the hot summer driving. |
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Red Fau Veh
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Joined: September 07, 2012
Posts: 3037
Location: Prescott Az.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: 356 pulley on a bus |
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| prowhistler wrote: |
Back in the 90s I tried the 356 mod on my 66 with a1750 and baby Webers that ran hot in the summer in DC. I had worked for Pete Peek under Sean Dowdle and the engine ran great, yet... Anyway, I installed and road tested the pulley and returned terrified at the sound the oem fan made so I shelved it.
FF 20 years
68 camper 1776; etc, etc.
I believe that the doghouse fan can outsuck bother the intakes and the carb in a split or early bay. My current engine employs a welded, balanced, and knifedged fan and is virtually silent. Revving the motor by hand produces a rush of air into the open engine lid that is quite palpable. Greater fan speed must IMHO, be accompanied by increased fresh air intake area to have optimum impact.
I believe the most elegant solution would be to fit custom shrouds to the heater boxes that sends the output down and to the rear, isolating their hot air from the fa; A hose connected to the oil cooler output for the same purpose;and replacing the front tin with a reinforced mesh screen to keep out debris. The lowering of resistance will allow the fan to reach it's limits before cavitation... |
The welded fan is a must when using the 356 pulley, and having a doghouse is good but put a type 4 oil cooler in that puppy and get the dog house extension kit and toss a velocity ring on there too and don't forget to lengthen your Hooverbit and seal it up proper like. 
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Swivel Seat panels are for people with no friends  |
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JohnnyRingo
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Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 432
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:57 am Post subject: Re: 356 pulley on a bus |
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| I did the same type4 oil cooler conversion and 356 pulley.........it dropped oil temps by 25 degrees and head temps as much as 50-60 degrees monitored with dokata digital cylinder head temp gauge. I installed the Berg type4 tin conversion and welded m6 nuts on inside oil cooler exhaust tin, stodden 356 pulley, rep said all their Porsche used this one.......I can now easily remove exhaust tin without removing dual carbs,doghouse, etc.......to access oil cooler for any reason....seals, etc. The new oem Mexico doghouse fan shroud does not use the extended Hoover bit......they modified the tin...pretty sweet. All future bus motors will definitely get this same treatment......1600 and up. 1904 stroker w/40 Webber's built by Pat Downs@cbperformance. |
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dirtylawnchair
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Joined: January 26, 2004
Posts: 1234
Location: Bradenton FL
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:07 am Post subject: Re: 356 pulley on a bus |
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| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| .it dropped oil temps by 25 degrees and head temps as much as 50-60 degrees monitored with dokata digital cylinder head temp gauge. |
What were and are your temps now? a 25* oil temp drop is a lot.
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JohnnyRingo
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Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 432
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:25 am Post subject: Re: 356 pulley on a bus |
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| dirtylawnchair wrote: |
| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| .it dropped oil temps by 25 degrees and head temps as much as 50-60 degrees monitored with dokata digital cylinder head temp gauge. |
What were and are your temps now? a 25* oil temp drop is a lot. |
200-210 in summer, average head temps 315-335...from NC to Florida 1500 mile round trip to Bulli. Type4 oil cooler only works with 356 pulley for cooler temps......you ask why do you know. My first VW show.....The fanshroud heater hose came off and got in the pulley belt and broke.......heads temps jumped to 425.... Thank goodness I just installed head cylinder gauge........I had to put on stock pulley/belt and head/oil temps rose back up to 230-240 and head temps to 350-385. This is an early 59 bus mind you........trust me and run this set up for cooler temps. And get gauges and hot temp sensor dipstick!!!! |
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JohnnyRingo
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Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 432
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: 356 pulley on a bus |
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| Just recently installed one on my 1600...it has alot of gaps/space due to rusted sheet metal, engine tins not aligned very well, etc... I was getting oil temp at 240 probe down the dipstick tube, here in NC average temps 87-90 degrees. I installed 356 pulley with VW factory D 7" crank pulley and 10x875 belt with 5 shims inside and 5 shims outside......oil temps dropped to 215 on a good run temps around 90 degrees outside. I have a doghouse fanshroud with stock oil cooler stock fan, straight 40w Valvoline vr1racing oil.... my other bus/motor 1904 stroker dual 40's I converted the type4/oil cooler conversion.....temps are about the same with stock/type4 oil cooler. |
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KOMBI NIKO
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 26050
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: 356 pulley on a bus |
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| KOMBI NIKO wrote: |
| Can you use the stock vw shims or do they need to be the 356 ones? |
You can, BUT the 365 shims are much better in that they help to lock the rear pulley half to the front pulley half by the shims having the same flat sided center hole.
Either way just make sure the rear pulley half is tight against the front half and shims, with the locking nut tightened down. If loose you might need a shim or two more.
Also found we needed one VW shim in front of the front pulley half to slightly offset the two pulley halfs to be in line with the crankshaft pulley.
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KOMBI NIKO
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Joined: February 03, 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:50 am Post subject: Re: 356 pulley on a bus |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| KOMBI NIKO wrote: |
| Can you use the stock vw shims or do they need to be the 356 ones? |
You can, BUT the 365 shims are much better in that they help to lock the rear pulley half to the front pulley half by the shims having the same flat sided center hole.
Either way just make sure the rear pulley half is tight against the front half and shims, with the locking nut tightened down. If loose you might need a shim or two more.
Also found we needed one VW shim in front of the front pulley half to slightly offset the two pulley halfs to be in line with the crankshaft pulley. |
Thanks mate noted. I did get the set up on today but had trouble with the belt sizes. Tried a 875mm and was too small ended up with a 880mm which is tight. Trying to find a 888mm which is proving hard in Australia.
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KOMBI NIKO
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:53 am Post subject: Re: 356 pulley on a bus |
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| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| Just recently installed one on my 1600...it has alot of gaps/space due to rusted sheet metal, engine tins not aligned very well, etc... I was getting oil temp at 240 probe down the dipstick tube, here in NC average temps 87-90 degrees. I installed 356 pulley with VW factory D 7" crank pulley and 10x875 belt with 5 shims inside and 5 shims outside......oil temps dropped to 215 on a good run temps around 90 degrees outside. I have a doghouse fanshroud with stock oil cooler stock fan, straight 40w Valvoline vr1racing oil.... my other bus/motor 1904 stroker dual 40's I converted the type4/oil cooler conversion.....temps are about the same with stock/type4 oil cooler. |
How did you get the 875 belt on? I tried it with a 7" crank pulley and no way could even get it on????? Used a 880 with 8 or 9 inner shims on.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 26050
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:49 am Post subject: Re: 356 pulley on a bus |
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| KOMBI NIKO wrote: |
Thanks mate noted. I did get the set up on today but had trouble with the belt sizes. Tried a 875mm and was too small ended up with a 880mm which is tight. Trying to find a 888mm which is proving hard in Australia. |
How many shims between the pulley halves? Might see if just one more will work and still have the belt ride on its tapered sides properly. Also it will stretch and wear soon to slightly bigger.
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