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richparker
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Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 7489
Location: Durango, CO
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 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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The guy who rebuilt the 002 in my bus and the swing axle in my bus, put GL5 in both, so far no issues. I’m currently using STP 80/90 GL5 in both.
I’m the past I’ve used Super Tech 80/90 GL4/GL5. I was just a Walmart this morning and read the back of the bottle just because of this thread. It says it’s safe for copper and bronze. Googled it and people in other forums are considering that safe for all yellow metals. Thoughts?
https://www.walmart.com/ip/16795067?sid=92c5ba4e-759e-46cc-8e64-dddb5db565ab
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| richparker wrote: |
The guy who rebuilt the 002 in my bus and the swing axle in my bus, put GL5 in both, so far no issues. I’m currently using STP 80/90 GL5 in both.
I’m the past I’ve used Super Tech 80/90 GL4/GL5. I was just a Walmart this morning and read the back of the bottle just because of this thread. It says it’s safe for copper and bronze. Googled it and people in other forums are considering that safe for all yellow metals. Thoughts?
https://www.walmart.com/ip/16795067?sid=92c5ba4e-759e-46cc-8e64-dddb5db565ab |
do you know how many moly synchros you have and which gears they are on?
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richparker
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Joined: November 24, 2011
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Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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Steve , I do not know the answer to that question. I will have to find out.
I’m reading another forums that the yellow metals require an oil with sulfur. Reports are stating that modern GL5 oils have plenty of sulfur for the yellow metal.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52269
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| richparker wrote: |
Steve , I do not know the answer to that question. I will have to find out.
I’m reading another forums that the yellow metals require an oil with sulfur. Reports are stating that modern GL5 oils have plenty of sulfur for the yellow metal. |
The reactive sulfur eats at the yellow metal, but I don't think that is the problem as the shifting can degrade pretty much instantly when the wrong GL-5 oil is added and doesn't improve when it is removed after even a very short while and another oil used to do the refill. A decade+ back before GTA went to recommending Ultra Guard, I had a tranny rebuilt by them and filled it with GL-4 oil as they recommend at the time, first and second shifted fine, but the 3-4 slider could hardly be moved as there was apparently a problem with the aftermarket slider that had been used. Sent the tranny back and they put in another slider and I refilled the box with GL-4 oil and ran it a thousand miles or two and the shifting was perfect but then swapped to the Ultra Guard and the tranny instantly started to grind when shifted, so I dumped the Ultra Guard in a very few miles and went back to the GL-4 but the shifting did not improve. I later played with different oils and got fair shifting out of the tranny but I just can't shift in as fast and smoothly as I would like to. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23092
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| richparker wrote: |
Steve , I do not know the answer to that question. I will have to find out.
I’m reading another forums that the yellow metals require an oil with sulfur. Reports are stating that modern GL5 oils have plenty of sulfur for the yellow metal. |
The reactive sulfur eats at the yellow metal, but I don't think that is the problem as the shifting can degrade pretty much instantly when the wrong GL-5 oil is added and doesn't improve when it is removed after even a very short while and another oil used to do the refill. A decade+ back before GTA went to recommending Ultra Guard, I had a tranny rebuilt by them and filled it with GL-4 oil as they recommend at the time, first and second shifted fine, but the 3-4 slider could hardly be moved as there was apparently a problem with the aftermarket slider that had been used. Sent the tranny back and they put in another slider and I refilled the box with GL-4 oil and ran it a thousand miles or two and the shifting was perfect but then swapped to the Ultra Guard and the tranny instantly started to grind when shifted, so I dumped the Ultra Guard in a very few miles and went back to the GL-4 but the shifting did not improve. I later played with different oils and got fair shifting out of the tranny but I just can't shift in as fast and smoothly as I would like to. |
Yes....GL-4 DOES have some sulfur in it.....but very little compared GL-5. And, other additives in GL-4 inhibit the sulfur from forming linkages with various metals. So there is a short term sulfur issue.
The somewhat longer term issue with sulfur has to do with moisture that gets entrained in the oil along with heat. The sulfur breaks down over time in those conditions and becomes a idic (sulfuric acid). While it's fairly diluted, over time it breaks down the copper in the brass. A basic formula for brass (there are numerous alloys)....is about 66% copper and 34% zinc.
Ray |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42377
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| richparker wrote: |
Steve , I do not know the answer to that question. I will have to find out.
I’m reading another forums that the yellow metals require an oil with sulfur. Reports are stating that modern GL5 oils have plenty of sulfur for the yellow metal. |
The reactive sulfur eats at the yellow metal, but I don't think that is the problem as the shifting can degrade pretty much instantly when the wrong GL-5 oil is added and doesn't improve when it is removed after even a very short while and another oil used to do the refill. A decade+ back before GTA went to recommending Ultra Guard, I had a tranny rebuilt by them and filled it with GL-4 oil as they recommend at the time, first and second shifted fine, but the 3-4 slider could hardly be moved as there was apparently a problem with the aftermarket slider that had been used. Sent the tranny back and they put in another slider and I refilled the box with GL-4 oil and ran it a thousand miles or two and the shifting was perfect but then swapped to the Ultra Guard and the tranny instantly started to grind when shifted, so I dumped the Ultra Guard in a very few miles and went back to the GL-4 but the shifting did not improve. I later played with different oils and got fair shifting out of the tranny but I just can't shift in as fast and smoothly as I would like to. |
just GUESSING but it sounds like 3 and 4 were moly coated so the extra slippery oil caused the 3 and 4 moly coated (moly is slippery like trying to walk across a pile of slate) synchros to lack grip. Moly is a weird molecule. If flat it acts like layers of loose ice sitting on top of one other, but if it stands up then the molecules are extra abrasive.
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stevo
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| Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2024 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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I found gallons of GL-4 Sta-Lube 85W90 at Baltimore Autoworks for about $55. I bought 2 gallons so the shipping wouldn't be such a hit. They sent straight 90. I objected and called attention to their site link. I received a full refund plus a return shipping label. So, if you're in Balto and want this product, that is a good price. Same morning, I called CRC, makers of Sta-Lube and was instructed I would be better served looking for the VW recommend weight gear oil. I found it - in this thread: Joe Gibbs oil, the GO Driven 80W90 GL-4 conventional [use Corey's link] is 14.59 per quart and has free shipping at $99. They also offer synthetic but I passed over that. If you're buying Stay-lube 90 at 85/gal, consider GO Driven at 59. Amazon is actually more money: GO is $20/qt, and definitely don't push the 2/qts for $45 button.
Years ago when I brought my 70 Westy out from being 10mm away going about-face from storage shed to chicken coop I changed out the gear oil. The shifting was sticky going into first, sometimes first to second until it got warmed up, always in winter. Having never driven it I fig'd that's just the way it came to me. Draining the NOT PURE GL4, I found the oil oddly foamy. A few days later when transferring the gear oil to recycling bottles it was still bubbly! I put my remaining old-stock gallon of Sta-lube 85W90 [bought last year for $25] in the tranny last week and noticed an immediate improvement. The downside is my doublecab is waiting for the same treatment. The not-at-all-foamy fluid is drained and the bumper is over 12" nose up in the garage waiting for Mr. Gibbs to come through this week or early next.
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metahacker
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Joined: May 26, 2010
Posts: 890
Location: san.diego
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 1:47 am Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| i am pretty sure GTA likes using moly syncros on 3/4, not on 1/4 |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42377
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| stevo wrote: |
I found gallons of GL-4 Sta-Lube 85W90 at Baltimore Autoworks for about $55. I bought 2 gallons so the shipping wouldn't be such a hit. They sent straight 90. I objected and called attention to their site link. I received a full refund plus a return shipping label. So, if you're in Balto and want this product, that is a good price. Same morning, I called CRC, makers of Sta-Lube and was instructed I would be better served looking for the VW recommend weight gear oil. I found it - in this thread: Joe Gibbs oil, the GO Driven 80W90 GL-4 conventional [use Corey's link] is 14.59 per quart and has free shipping at $99. They also offer synthetic but I passed over that. If you're buying Stay-lube 90 at 85/gal, consider GO Driven at 59. Amazon is actually more money: GO is $20/qt, and definitely don't push the 2/qts for $45 button.
Years ago when I brought my 70 Westy out from being 10mm away going about-face from storage shed to chicken coop I changed out the gear oil. The shifting was sticky going into first, sometimes first to second until it got warmed up, always in winter. Having never driven it I fig'd that's just the way it came to me. Draining the NOT PURE GL4, I found the oil oddly foamy. A few days later when transferring the gear oil to recycling bottles it was still bubbly! I put my remaining old-stock gallon of Sta-lube 85W90 [bought last year for $25] in the tranny last week and noticed an immediate improvement. The downside is my doublecab is waiting for the same treatment. The not-at-all-foamy fluid is drained and the bumper is over 12" nose up in the garage waiting for Mr. Gibbs to come through this week or early next. |
Usually that foamy transmission oil is caused by moisture in the oil, and not getting hot enough to drive out the moisture. This is true in engines and transmissions that don't get driven far enough once in awhile to evaporate the moisture.
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richparker
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Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 7489
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2025 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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I just changed the transaxle oil in my beetle. Went with the Super Tech 80/90, it’s shifting nice and smooth.
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Nitramrebrab72
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Joined: November 10, 2018
Posts: 832
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2025 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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Sae has changed their viscosity ratings over 10 times since 1972 every time allowing oil companies to thin them out to make for smoother and more fuel efficient for transmissions with tighter clearances. Bear in mind all the Sae Gear oil ratings are just names with broad viscosity's that no longer mean anything for older cars. What you need to check is the Cst @100°C you want it to be at least above 18mm2@100C° the closer to 24mm2@100°C the better it can be slightly over if it has a 75W rating as the beginning rating number. Also GL5 is a higher load rating so if it is GL5 it depends if the higher load rating was obtained without corrosive additives or not.. Look for yellow metal friendly and don't use the GL rating (it's a load rating not a yellow metal friendly rating)to base it's corrosivety some GL4's are more corrosive than some GL5's.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=791327&highlight=
Check this topic a made before about SAE ratings |
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Nitramrebrab72
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2025 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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Also GL4 in general in hot and damp conditions will be more corrosive than all GL5's in desert dry conditions .And some GL5's are less corrosive than some GL4's in the same climates it depends if the GL rating was obtained by adding corrosive additives or by synthesising the molecular structure of the oil to obtain the GL rating. That is why a lot of synthetic GL5 oils are less corrosive than mineral GL4 oils as they no longer rely on corrosive additives to increase the load rating. It is also why some in unique conditions may have to drop to GL3 to find a safe oil. Or opt for a synthetic GL4 oil.. I say again GL is a load rating not a yellow metal friendly rating. Even though in general all GL4 oils are safe to use around yellow metal parts (but they do still have some corrosive additives roughly half that of GL5 mineral oils and in hot damp jungle conditions may no longer be yellow metal friendly) all GL5 oils are not unfriendly to yellow metals and some synthetic GL5's are less corrosive than most GL4's.
Based on the large contact areas of the gearbox teeth and low pressure due to the low power/torque of the engine GL5 rating is totally unessasary. |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2025 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| Nitramrebrab72 wrote: |
Also GL4 in general in hot and damp conditions will be more corrosive than all GL5's in desert dry conditions .And some GL5's are less corrosive than some GL4's in the same climates it depends if the GL rating was obtained by adding corrosive additives or by synthesising the molecular structure of the oil to obtain the GL rating. That is why a lot of synthetic GL5 oils are less corrosive than mineral GL4 oils as they no longer rely on corrosive additives to increase the load rating. It is also why some in unique conditions may have to drop to GL3 to find a safe oil. Or opt for a synthetic GL4 oil.. I say again GL is a load rating not a yellow metal friendly rating. Even though in general all GL4 oils are safe to use around yellow metal parts (but they do still have some corrosive additives roughly half that of GL5 mineral oils and in hot damp jungle conditions may no longer be yellow metal friendly) all GL5 oils are not unfriendly to yellow metals and some synthetic GL5's are less corrosive than most GL4's.
Based on the large contact areas of the gearbox teeth and low pressure due to the low power/torque of the engine GL5 rating is totally unessasary. |
what about the moly synchro problem? How will someone know in advance if they will be screwed by rolling the dice with GL5 EP additives or not? How can they know whether they have moly coated synchros or not inside the transmission. Some have none, some have 1, 2, 3 or 4. VW used whatever was available and economic at the time. In some cases they may have already worn the moly coatings away and it would have no effect. I personally know one transmission builder who was really pissed off a client put a GL5 gear oil in an 091/094 used in a sand rail, because he had to go thru the transmission again at a time when he had other things to be doing. The problem is real, not imaginary. I know when building engines many years ago we had to put a special finish on the bores, almost like a mirror when moly coated rings were used because using moly coated things completely changes the game. Moly molecules have a structure like tiny pieces of shale. When they are flat, and laying on top of one another, they are slippery as can be, but when they get up on end they are abrasive.
Each transmission type is unique. I had a CJ7 with a Borg Warner T5 5-speed transmission, and it used a GM manual transmission fluid that was very thin, was dark brown and smelled like fish. The rear differential with a clutch pack used a limited slip gear oil, and the transfer case and front diff used GL5. I had to keep all three on the shelf when it was time for a fluid change. The Fiat 124 spider used GL4 in both the diff and 5-speed transmission. The old Ford didn't care what you used.
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Nitramrebrab72
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Joined: November 10, 2018
Posts: 832
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Nitramrebrab72 wrote: |
Also GL4 in general in hot and damp conditions will be more corrosive than all GL5's in desert dry conditions .And some GL5's are less corrosive than some GL4's in the same climates it depends if the GL rating was obtained by adding corrosive additives or by synthesising the molecular structure of the oil to obtain the GL rating. That is why a lot of synthetic GL5 oils are less corrosive than mineral GL4 oils as they no longer rely on corrosive additives to increase the load rating. It is also why some in unique conditions may have to drop to GL3 to find a safe oil. Or opt for a synthetic GL4 oil.. I say again GL is a load rating not a yellow metal friendly rating. Even though in general all GL4 oils are safe to use around yellow metal parts (but they do still have some corrosive additives roughly half that of GL5 mineral oils and in hot damp jungle conditions may no longer be yellow metal friendly) all GL5 oils are not unfriendly to yellow metals and some synthetic GL5's are less corrosive than most GL4's.
Based on the large contact areas of the gearbox teeth and low pressure due to the low power/torque of the engine GL5 rating is totally unessasary. |
what about the moly synchro problem? How will someone know in advance if they will be screwed by rolling the dice with GL5 EP additives or not? How can they know whether they have moly coated synchros or not inside the transmission. Some have none, some have 1, 2, 3 or 4. VW used whatever was available and economic at the time. In some cases they may have already worn the moly coatings away and it would have no effect. I personally know one transmission builder who was really pissed off a client put a GL5 gear oil in an 091/094 used in a sand rail, because he had to go thru the transmission again at a time when he had other things to be doing. The problem is real, not imaginary. I know when building engines many years ago we had to put a special finish on the bores, almost like a mirror when moly coated rings were used because using moly coated things completely changes the game. Moly molecules have a structure like tiny pieces of shale. When they are flat, and laying on top of one another, they are slippery as can be, but when they get up on end they are abrasive.
Each transmission type is unique. I had a CJ7 with a Borg Warner T5 5-speed transmission, and it used a GM manual transmission fluid that was very thin, was dark brown and smelled like fish. The rear differential with a clutch pack used a limited slip gear oil, and the transfer case and front diff used GL5. I had to keep all three on the shelf when it was time for a fluid change. The Fiat 124 spider used GL4 in both the diff and 5-speed transmission. The old Ford didn't care what you used. |
For sure. I am not saying to roll a dice . I never said that!!! I never said it was imaginary either those are your words that you have attached to my post . My post simply says GL ratings are not yellow metal friendly ratings but load ratings. Please in the future try not to manipulate my post attatchng your words to fit your narrative(story) with add on's and stories of as you put it of a 'pissed off' gearbox rebuilder.
It would be most appreciated . Please take no offence either as I am just using direct words to make things clear in the least time consuming way.  |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42377
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2025 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| Nitramrebrab72 wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| Nitramrebrab72 wrote: |
Also GL4 in general in hot and damp conditions will be more corrosive than all GL5's in desert dry conditions .And some GL5's are less corrosive than some GL4's in the same climates it depends if the GL rating was obtained by adding corrosive additives or by synthesising the molecular structure of the oil to obtain the GL rating. That is why a lot of synthetic GL5 oils are less corrosive than mineral GL4 oils as they no longer rely on corrosive additives to increase the load rating. It is also why some in unique conditions may have to drop to GL3 to find a safe oil. Or opt for a synthetic GL4 oil.. I say again GL is a load rating not a yellow metal friendly rating. Even though in general all GL4 oils are safe to use around yellow metal parts (but they do still have some corrosive additives roughly half that of GL5 mineral oils and in hot damp jungle conditions may no longer be yellow metal friendly) all GL5 oils are not unfriendly to yellow metals and some synthetic GL5's are less corrosive than most GL4's.
Based on the large contact areas of the gearbox teeth and low pressure due to the low power/torque of the engine GL5 rating is totally unessasary. |
what about the moly synchro problem? How will someone know in advance if they will be screwed by rolling the dice with GL5 EP additives or not? How can they know whether they have moly coated synchros or not inside the transmission. Some have none, some have 1, 2, 3 or 4. VW used whatever was available and economic at the time. In some cases they may have already worn the moly coatings away and it would have no effect. I personally know one transmission builder who was really pissed off a client put a GL5 gear oil in an 091/094 used in a sand rail, because he had to go thru the transmission again at a time when he had other things to be doing. The problem is real, not imaginary. I know when building engines many years ago we had to put a special finish on the bores, almost like a mirror when moly coated rings were used because using moly coated things completely changes the game. Moly molecules have a structure like tiny pieces of shale. When they are flat, and laying on top of one another, they are slippery as can be, but when they get up on end they are abrasive.
Each transmission type is unique. I had a CJ7 with a Borg Warner T5 5-speed transmission, and it used a GM manual transmission fluid that was very thin, was dark brown and smelled like fish. The rear differential with a clutch pack used a limited slip gear oil, and the transfer case and front diff used GL5. I had to keep all three on the shelf when it was time for a fluid change. The Fiat 124 spider used GL4 in both the diff and 5-speed transmission. The old Ford didn't care what you used. |
For sure. I am not saying to roll a dice . I never said that!!! I never said it was imaginary either those are your words that you have attached to my post . My post simply says GL ratings are not yellow metal friendly ratings but load ratings. Please in the future try not to manipulate my post attatchng your words to fit your narrative(story) with add on's and stories of as you put it of a 'pissed off' gearbox rebuilder.
It would be most appreciated . Please take no offence either as I am just using direct words to make things clear in the least time consuming way. |
I asked a question. Sorry you took it so personal. It was not intended that way.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2025 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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I recently worked on oil leaks on the engine and had the engine and transmission out. Decided to replace the couple year old Stalube GL4 with Joe Gibbs Driven GL4 80w-90 transmission gear lube I got thru Summit Racing. Transmission is noticeably quieter and shifts smoother.
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