Fuel injection relief here!

[raygreenwood]

[Aussie1500]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for some advice on FI.
I went for a long drive yesterday to fill the empty space in my life since I sold my Beetle 10 years ago. (Which I've regretted ever since as it was a fully restored '69 1500 and I sold it for $5k.)

I came home with a 72 (apparently) Squareback.
I'm told that in Australia, only the Fastback was sold with FI.
The previous owner broke the crank in the car a number of years ago and swapped it with a FI motor that he had in a Fastback.

Basically the car is hard to start. It smells rich to me. It fires but doesn't catch and idle or if it does its momentary and stalls. You can catch it on throttle, rev it and after a minute or two it'll settle down and eventually idle.

I've read quite a bit of information, but am totally new to playing with FI.
It's hard to know what's going on and what components are where as I'm not sure if the installation follows the factory or not.

My first observation today is that the (I think its this) AAR is faulty.
The previous owner has its supply to the air cleaner clamped off.
I got the car running, connected it and the idle speed picked up to a better speed. After a few minutes (presumably as the engine was warmed) the idle would rise quickly up to 1500 and then drop back and repeat. If I disconnect the AAR it settles to a somewhat slow and a little rough idle and just sits there running. (The AAR is sucking air all the time when I checked)

Second is that an aftermarket (noisy) fuel pump is fitted in the engine bay and runs all the time the ignition is on. It has a pressure gauge mounted on it and shows a steady 30psi.

I'm still trying to identify where all the FI parts are.

The previous owner was a fan of the "rat" look and I'm not so have a fair bit of work to do.

I'm told that FI parts are VERY hard to come by here in Australia so I'm tempted to swap it over to the dual carbs sitting on the spare motor but would like your opinions on this.
If I can get it to run properly and reliably as is I don't mind leaving the FI.
And to any astute readers, no its not an automatic..

What do you all think?
Cheers
Chris

[KTPhil]

That engine is from an automatic. The electric AAR and the kick down switch on the throttle shaft give that away. If yours is a stick these can work, though.

The biggest contributors to poor FI running are:
- air/vacuum leaks (hoses, injector seals, etc).
- poor electrical connections (they can be electrically poor even if tight-fitting)
- hacked or damaged MPS
- missing of parts among the three generations of FI

[Aussie1500]

Thanks. I'm still trying to identify all the different components. Still have located the temperature sensors for example. Where is the kicksown switch?
The FI system, I'm told was swapped complete from the fastback. Hopefully it's the correct set up.
Are the sensors/components available? I can't seem to find anyone here with them..

[Aussie1500]

Thought I'd put up a public thankyou here and voice the virtues of methodical inspection of these FI cars.

I made contact with George (Tram) via here and he has, over the past 2 months and MANY emails, helped guide me with diagnosis, parts sourcing and the eventual cure for the symptoms I had previously listed.

Once the goodies from George arrived, (including a Bosch Tester), I got stuck into testing everything. We knew all along that the AAR was faulty and George sourced me the correct one.

My loom was pretty average and in the end I just decided to pull it and fit the tested one that George had sent. I was missing too many plugs and covers etc to bother with it and all its repairs.
I went through the loom from beginning to end marking what all the plugs were for and it was then I realised 2 issues.

The PO had connected the head sensor to what should be the earth plug for the Fuel pump from the FI loom. (My pump ran all the time the ignition was on.) I also discovered the the faulty electric AAR was plugged into the wire in the harness for the head sensor, so with those fixe and a new AAR, the hard starting was solved.

However, it still was running very rich. A side question to George about timing made me decide to go back and check that again and it was found to be WELL advanced. Like 1.5 " before even the factory 3 marks appeared. Set back at 0 and all is well!

Just goes to show that even though the wiring all looked correct, methodical checking saved the day and the need to just keep throwing parts at it.

I am very grateful to George/Tram and the vast information on this forum and just wanted to say publicly a very big thankyou to him for all his help, even though I have already done so privately..

If you're new here and looking for FI or any other information.. be guided by those on here with years of experience, they don't talk just for the love of their own voices..

[Bobnotch]

[MARTYB]

Hi, i own a 1972 type 3 fastback with the original fuel injection system.
Can you please give any advice on what items to check on relating to cold starting issues. It normally takes 2 or 3 goes and when it starts it runs not too well until it warms up properly and then it's fine

[Aussie1500]

MartyB,
I replied to your PM.
Give me a call...

[KTPhil]

Probably not the cold start system, which only operates while cranking. If it starts, then runs rough until warm, look for air leaks, and check the temp sensors for proper values hot and cold. Your AAR is also suspect. Do you have the thermostat on your engine?

[MARTYB]

[KTPhil]

[MARTYB]

Thank to KT Phil for posting the ohms readings for the temp sensors. Also forgot to mention there is no thermostat on the motor.
Have changed the AAR as the old one was not closing off at all when hot and the replacement one is much better, but has a slight sucking when hot
Could anyone suggest how to adjust the throttle valve switch as mine is the 5 pin version.
Tried doing it the way in the bentley manual and not convinced it's set properly
Car seems not ideal running when driving slowly in traffic etc on part throttle openings at low revs and tend to jerk or buck at times.
Cheers everyone

[Bobnotch]

[desmato]

Hey all, I just picked up a '71 Fasty while the Ghia is at the bodyshop. I started reading through all 250 pages of this thread and about lost my mind. (got to page 19 or so)

Mine runs ok and drives GREAT ! Starts within 1 second of cranking but as it warms up, gets RICH !!! and runs less than perfect. It has the Ford ranger fuel pump and I have a Bentley manual. I was told that the engine was not original to the car (P.O. bought without an engine) but that he put the correct stuff in from Barnum's in Michigan. I will be verifying all part numbers for accuracy, of course.

Reading through the first 19 pages, I have some great pointers and areas to look at. I'm sure I will be reaching out as time progresses and appreciate all the help I may need and acquire.

Todd

[Bobnotch]

[quote="desmato"]Hey all, I just picked up a '71 Fasty while the Ghia is at the bodyshop. I started reading through all 250 pages of this thread and about lost my mind. (got to page 19 or so)

Mine runs ok and drives GREAT ! Starts within 1 second of cranking but as it warms up, gets RICH !!! and runs less than perfect. It has the Ford ranger fuel pump and I have a Bentley manual. I was told that the engine was not original to the car (P.O. bought without an engine) but that he put the correct stuff in from Barnum's in Michigan. I will be verifying all part numbers for accuracy, of course.

Reading through the first 19 pages, I have some great pointers and areas to look at. I'm sure I will be reaching out as time progresses and appreciate all the help I may need and acquire.

Todd

"Gets rich" as it warms up means it's dropping voltage. Check to see if it's the voltage regular, or the generator brushes that's causing the problem. The D-jet FI IS sensitive to voltage. Anything below 12 volts and it'll run rich.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120

[Tram]

[quote="Bobnotch"]

[desmato]

figured out the vacuum hose for the "pressure sensor" over on the driver side was disconnected at the plenum. once connected, I had to adjust the idle WAY back down and now it runs much less rich. Harder to start, but better all around. I think the AAV may also be suspect as it's sucking vacuum when hot.

[desmato]

Tram,... good to see you're still here helping us F.I. newbies after all these years !

I'm glad mine runs/drives and I'm just fiddling with its issues to make it more better. Not my 1st A.C., but it IS my 1st F.I.

I haven't found a good step-step of what to check, order of operation etc. for the Type 3 F.I. unless I'm blind. THAT would be a great 'tool' for all and save a ton of time searching the Samba or reading 250+ pages in this thread.

I have the Bentley but noticed a few items don't match, the wiring diagrams leave something to be desired re the F.I., there are no component list and/or locations, the lack of testing (without the 1218 or other unit) is missing etc..... I read here about a "MAP" but don't see that referenced in the Bentley per se. I DO see a "Pressure sensor" in the manual and that hose was off, causing WAY too rich a mixture. Mine is mounted on the driver side under the pan, is this the same thing as the MAP ?

I believe the engine is and older version as one Temp sensor is on the bottom of the head and the other is in the Air plenum (wires 1 & 13). However, it also has an electric AAR...(Not connected electrically nor any wires to use in the harness but, the vacuum is open ALL the time, even when hot) I know this engine is not original and now I may have to start measuring everything, looking at/for part numbers etc. as I feel there may be a mismatch of stuff adding to the soup.

1st in line is the ECU # 311-906-021-D (I assume this is the correct "D" unit for my '71)
Next is the #2 ? Temp sensor in the air plenum. It reads ~230 Ohm @ ~70*F which looks to be about right BUT, It runs way better with it unplugged.

It has a cold start valve and what looks like a 1 wire threaded sensor just in front of it.

I obviously need some assistance identifying what Items are what, how they relate with the common terms used to describe them and how to measure/check them all.

I will be compiling all this data as I go and create a step-by-step for those that need the same.

[KTPhil]

Automatic or 4-speed?

[desmato]

KT, 4 speed.

14.3V at Idle so the charging system is just fine

( Also, I just edited and added some info to my previous post)