Emergency Flashers on a Factory 12V System

[stevo]

For fifteen years I've been whittling down problems with my 12V 1965 Standard and am just about getting "there". One thing that begs attention is the emergency flasher. The bus has the customary 1963-65 pull switch; the original German emergency flasher relay 211953207 [also found on 12V T34 fog switches]; and the aftermarket headlight relay shown below:

What happens when the flasher switch knob is pulled flashers come on at all four corners for ONE, SINGLE hit - before the fronts bail, and the rears continue blinking. My hunch is the headlight relay being two tab is not grounded, and the behavior of the blinking gives that not-grounded impression. Since this happens only at front and not rear makes me question the headlight relay. Can anybody help me think with me on this and if I'm getting close perhaps suggest which headlight relay may serve better.
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When you cross an Irishman, they never forget. I mean, never.

[busdaddy]

I don't know how to tell you this, but what you are calling a "headlight relay" is a flasher.
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[stevo]

Thanks, got it. the Emergency light - Relay 12V is the relay under the passenger window, and the aftermarket shown in my photo is named Relay - Flashing Indicator. There's two flashing relays. In the meantime I've been doing research. It appears 113953183B [12V 2X18W] may be the correct relay in my instance that should be located under the driver's side window. Does seem a ground wire should be applied to it.
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When you cross an Irishman, they never forget. I mean, never.

[70bus]

Trust me, this is a frustrating system with often contradictory results. The fact that the fronts go on once and stop means a relay is failing to perform; while (miraculously) you do have the proper VW hazard relay, the contacts sometimes are dirty, gummed up, burnt... Also, it grounds through that little tab holding it to frame, and that ground is dodgy, both at that tab and inside the relay (pinch fit that squeezes tin can against brass tab at edge of the pasteboard bottom). Try to clean up the ground at tab by cleaning both up a little - take some paint/rust off the frame part. If same issue, a real quick way to eliminate that relay having an internal issue is to use a moden Bosch-style cube with 87/87b tabs; if flashers start working, than the hazard relay needs work.

Second issue is the turn signal relay; it looks like it has two terminals, and maybe no ground? You need can w/ terminals marked 31, 49 and 49a, and the double tabbed is 49a with one wire going to the speedo bulb. Those are common and should at least function... possibly with other issues!

OR

you need one with the correct terminals, which are +, S and K (or KBL). Grounds through mounting point. You can use an early bay square box with a 31 tab for ground. There are also some Wagner and Ideal can relays that are set up that way, too.

EDIT - Ideal 568 is one I have found NOS online and used successfully. Says 49 and 49a but that's just + and S; the KBL goes to ground as needed.


If you don't have any of those KBL type, get the 49a one that even local flaps might have, and see what happens. Some people get lucky and it works, some get the speedo light on when key off, some have other issues. But at least it might get you to 'all lights flash like they should' which is a start!
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater

[stevo]

I'm cool with switching out a relay having 87's or operating on the 207 at some point. The tab is touching a paint-free surface and I've gone as far as pressing that relay to the metal making sure contact is great.

You're correct that the other relay hanging on the left has two tabs and I find that to be a head scratcher. I'm wondering without a ground whether that is the issue affecting the hazards up front, as you say causing "other issues".

I'll rummage around my stash for relays with grounding capabilities. Simultaneously I'm rooting around for the factory correct relay that is 12V 2X18W. I'm seeing many out there which are 2X21W. Wondering whether going for 21W is sensible?
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When you cross an Irishman, they never forget. I mean, never.

[70bus]

Two-prong turn signal relays like that are mainly a Bug thing I think; I don't think the can is even grounded.
EDIT
You can use either the 'US 63 by owner w/ emergency flashers' or the regular 63 USA diagram, but details are important. I personally prefer the 'by owner' and using an early-bay t/s box (tho i use an electronic version from Pantera Electronics and run LED turn signals with it). Some folks using that schematic wire up a t/s relay with the common "49a" relays (usually Hella 91ES5JZx21w, 211953193A) and may or may not have issues. Pick a version, wire it that way, and see what happens. Changing to the other just involves swapping a few wires and the t/s relay, so inconvenient but not a huge deal.

[BarryL]

[stevo]

Purchased an NOS flasher for $20 and installed with very great success. The flasher didn't work until I grounded tab -31 to a real clean surface on the chassis. I was trying without that ground [using only the factory screw-in location] but I pulled out a brown wire from stash and for the first time in forever flashers work as intended. Perhaps it could have worked - there is a lot of paint on the screw-in location. Being full of bee stings I'm not really in the mood to scratch that surface. Correct parts win again. Thanks all for your attention on this.

There is a loose ground wire on my later bus 12V T/S switch just hanging out. 1966 wiring diagram shows that attaching to the W/W switch, but leaving things alone for now unless there is a better suggestion.

_________________
When you cross an Irishman, they never forget. I mean, never.

[70bus]

Does your speedo indicator light flash when t/s or hazards are on? Does it stay lit when ignition key is off?

There are service notes about changing the t/s relay, and some needing a ground wire added since the old ones "grounded" through the mounting post. Part 211-971-119a
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater

[stevo]

Craig, with key off the two indicators in the speedo and the red light in the dash both flash with emergency switch on. The two indicators light up as a group of two and they alternate blinks with the red dash light. Once the T/S switch is employed while emergency flashers are blinking the indicator lights in the speedo stop.

Curious about that VW part number: what kind of ground wire needs a part number?? Naturally I looked it up and was returned to a samba thread and that's it.
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When you cross an Irishman, they never forget. I mean, never.

[70bus]

#3

http://oacdp.com/5867part/623.png
http://oacdp.com/5867part/625.png
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater