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Jay Cee PR tubes on Wasserboxer.
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mattcfish
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: Jay Cee PR tubes on Wasserboxer. Reply with quote

Thanks for the tip Tencent. They fit like a glove if you put them in with the big end toward the block.
CB Performance
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1395
Vee Dub Parts
https://www.vwparts.net/JCTUBES.html
The big end is just a hair smaller than the stock tubes, but the Vanagon seals fit perfectly and the tubes have a nice tight seal.
Easy to install. Makes head work easier. Look cool too.
$85 to $90 a set of 8 seems expensive, but if you want to buy "Vanagon" colapsibles it will cost up to $30 each!
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, they're a good fit, and a lifetime item that can be used over and over. The stock tubes can be reused several times during overhauls, but if you need to do a repair in the car you're SOL. If you're in the market for new tubes, because your stock ones are corroded or dented or whatever, you may as well get the JC's because they cost no more, and usually less, than most retailers get for a set of stock tubes. And if you need to repair tubes in the car, the cost of the JC's is the same as just 3 of the cheesy repair tubes. I can't say often enough how disgusted I am with those things; what a colossal ripoff.

You don't even need to get a set of wbx tube seals. Even the small Type1 seals will stretch over the larger ends and work just fine with the washers backing them up.

I think I gave you the wrong size info in an earlier thread where we talked about this. I have a new set of Jaycees now for my next engine, so I was able to mike them just now. The small end ID is 19mm, OD 21mm; large end ID is 22mm, OD 24mm. The stoc wbx tube has the small end the same OD (but a bit thinner walls), the big end is 25mm OD.

The toughest thing about using them is how to hold the outer end and compress the tube against the case without marring the finish. I didn't do so well with the visegrips, but it's just a cosmetic thing.

My new ones are red that is very close to the color of my van. How about that? They'll look cool with a black case and natural heads. I know it's trivial, but for all the work that goes into a rebuild, I kinda like when it looks good, too.
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mattcfish
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put mine in bare handed. Used my palm to push toward the block as far as it would go (make sure the o-rings are well lubricated). It also helps if you have the back end up on ramps. Grabbed the head end hard with one hand and guided it into the hole (I know what you're thinking). Snap, Pop, done. No scratches, no tools.

Tencent, I knew your measurements were off. It made me panic a little until I received them. I already had the heads on, If they didn't fit I was going to be SOL. They are a thing of beauty. You really don't want to take your heads off to repair a PR seal or a Hydro lifter.

2.2 cylinders are working like a dream. I put them in with engine still in the car. The only issue is an oil leak at the flange on my brand new oil filler tube. There's always something.
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EricD
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
If you're in the market for new tubes, because your stock ones are corroded or dented


So how dented can the tubes get before you are in the market for new ones? When I was draining the coolant out of the plugs in the water jacket, I noticed a few scattered dings and a dent (about half inch nominal diameter and maybe 1/8 inch max depth) caused by someone (maybe me, but I was really careful around those tubes) while removing the driver side coolant plug. No evidence of an oil leak in there. Regarding corrosion, they look shiny new.

If everything is running fine with no lifter noise do I have nothing to worry about? Or should I have a set of tubes under the back seat as insurance in case the dent causes a failure while I'm out on the road this summer? I assume the main failure would be a drastic loss in oil pressure if the tube were to rupture?
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, it wouldn't show up as a loss of oil pressure. The tubes just allow unpressurised oil to drain back into the sump. If there's ahole in one of them, you'll just have an oil leak. Eventually you would see loss of OP if enough oil leaked out, but you'd need to go pretty far for that to happen.

You can see for yourself if there's a likelihood of a dent being deep enough for a pushrod to wear a hole in the tube. You can take off your valve covers and look down the dented tube with a flashlight, and actually see if the pushrod is too close to the dented area. If the dents are on the bottom or top of the tube, have someone rotate the engine as you look, as the pushrod will move a bit up and down as the rocker swings. If dents are on the side and clear well in one position, they should be good thru engine rotation, but you can certainly check to make sure.

You'll see that there is a pretty generous clearance between the pushrod and tube, so dents would have to be fairly deep for rubbing to happen. I don't think you'd hear it if it were, though.

As much as I resent their cheap construction at a high price, having one of the VW repair tubes or equivalent in your road kit is not a bad idea, just in case you happen to damage a tube and spring a leak.

Matt, I'll try the muscle technique next time. houldn't be too hard with the engine on a stand, anyway. The ones I am using, I put in in the car, and I didn't feel like messing around, just grabbed the visegrips and went at it.
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mattcfish
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yah, I used the flash light method just to see if the PR's were correctly positioned in the Hydro lifters.
Can anybody tell me if the pesky push rod covers actually serve a purpose other than making crankase draining more difficult and reflecting heat back to the engine.
At first I thought they prevented dents. But if you notice the exhaust pipes hang lower than the covers and would probable get the brunt of any road debris.
The other great thing about them is that you get to test the integrity of your exhaust stud threads every 2 years. The first time I changed the coolent on my 1.9, 2 of the studs came out along with the threads in the head. I solved the problem by drilling two 1 1/2" diameter holes in each cover where the drain plug is. After my piston change I just decided to leave them off.
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dumped those things the first time I ever worked on my engine, and never looked back. Maybe they protect somewhat from road debris, but I'll take my chances, and I drive miles off-road every day just to get home, not to mention lots of forest roads, etc. I think the plates were a holdover from the aircooled days, and those plates serve a purpose by directing cooling air out the back, but on the wbx? Plus having them attached to the exhaust studs is so damn aggaravating. Phooey!
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danno
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

would these be the same thing?
http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13%2D4109
they look close and would only take a day or two to get here.

I have one stinking tube leaking and it will be some thing like this or a single tube that the local shop is suggesting but i would rather get the set if they work good.

Thanks
Dan
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iceracer
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danno: I those are for a Bug and Vanagon uses a different size on the ends.

10c and Matt: As far as those covers go, I still use them just for the purpose of keeping road salt spray off of the heads during the winter. But I like and have thought of Matt's idea of drilling a hole in them for getting the head drains out. Will do next time.
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bucko
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just replaced the seals and heads recently, and found that the drivers side pushrod shield would no longer bolt up because the tabs that slid over the exhaust studs were rusted and welded up when a previous owner welded the crap out of the exhaust in their attempt to seal holes in it. I've left it off, remembering TENCENTS post awhile back about these shields not being needed.

In driving around Europe, I do recall lots of snow up in the mountains, and can only guess that the VW engineers installed these shields to protect the pushrod tubes from road salt and rust. Other than that, no other purpose seeing as how the heads are cooled by water and not air from a squirel fan.
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danno
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are the ones that you guys using (http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1395) pretty much the same. They are for a type 1 just like the ones from cip1.ca http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13%2D4109 if they are for the same application it should work it just comes down to weather or not it is a quality product or not.
do I need any other seals so that it fits the wbxr.

Thanks

Dan
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danno, the Jaycees are intended for use with high-ratio rockers on T1 engines. When you use ratio rockers the outboard end of the pushrod runs closer to the rocker shaft, hence higher within the tube, so it can end up rubbing on the inner surface of the tube out near the head. It's not a problem with 1.25's, but with 1.4's and higher they're getting very close. So the tubes are made with the outboard end having a larger ID.

The stock wbx tubes for reasons unknown have a larger diameter on their inboard ends (stock T1's are the same at both ends). So the dilemma was in finding a tube with one end several mm larger than the other, and the Jaycees filled the bill. I had to phone CB and have them measure them for me to find out whether they would work or not.

There are other collapsible tubes on the market from different aftermarket manufacturers, and some are just symmetrical like T1's, while some are asymmetrical for ratio rockers. That's the main difference. So if the tubes you're considering have one end like a T1 tube, 21mm OD, and the other end larger, close to 25mm OD, you can make them work by turning them around.

The Jaycees have one end 24mm OD, so they're very close, only 1mm undersize for the wbx case. The wide washers they supply with them are used on the wide end and back up the seals, and they are needed to assure a good seal because the step machined into the wide end is very small (they are actually just valve spring shims). Other tubes might not supply washers like that, though, I don't know and you would have to ask if they're needed.

The EMPI tubes you linked to say they have a 7/8" ID on the larger end, which is 22mm, and if the wall thickness is 1mm like the Jaycees, then the OD would be 24mm and they would effectively be the same as the Jaycees, but you might need to use a washer on that end to supply the extra back support for the seal. I believe those would work, although it's not clear if washers are supplied in the kit. I see something like washers in the picture, and if they are machined like the Jaycees then they would also have a very small step and need washers. So you're probably good to go, but calling them to confirm those things would be smart.

They supply the seals, and even though the wbx uses two different size seals, the normal T1 seals work just fine stretched over the big ends.

Even the Scat gold tubes on that same cip1 page would probably work. I only made the call to CB to confirm the Jaycees, since I was ordering other things from them at the time. If you're considering another type then to avoid wasting your time you should confirm with them that they meet the requirements. I wouldn't mention that it's for a wbx; they'll just scratch their head and might say they won't work because this engine is Greek to most VW folks, especially in the parts biz. Just confirm the tube dimensions (length is unimportant since they're of variable length) and that they have whatever is needed to back up the large end seal.
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danno
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for that
you confimed what I have read on the forum now I just have to decide if I should do all of them or just the one that is leaking

Dan
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem. Now if you try out one of those other brands and they work, we'll know of another type that can be used. So be sure to follow up and tell us your results.
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mattcfish
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The JayCee's are working very well after 3000 miles. Slick and simple.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi.
It been many years what is your feelings now...still think that are great? any leaks?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy topic ressurection Batman! Good news is that the OP was on the samba today. Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still using Jaycee tubes and they work very well (fitted wide end toward block). Actually what I meant to say is they work very well with stock rockers. When I switched to 1.25 ratio rockers I had problems after about 20,000 miles. The pushrods were kissing the lip of the tubes ever so slightly at the head end and eventually wore a hole in a few of the tubes right under the seal. This caused only minor leaking, but was not ideal. Tried changing geometry so the rod was more centered, but the problem continued with the Scat ratio rockers I'm using.
I came up with a unique solution that has worked very well for about 10,000miles. I made adapters out Bronze "top hat" style bearings fittted into the block so that the small end of the PR tube could be mounted inboard and the big end toward the head (like they were intended to on an aircooled). I found some on line that had an inside diameter close to the small end size and an outside diameter similar to the block orifice. I ordered an extra set of large end seals and fitted them to the outside of the spacer. I then chamfered the inside of outboard side of the bronze adapter so a Viton o-ring could be fitted to the small end of the tube and held in place. Seals tight as a drum and should work with most ratio rockers.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 1st set I had 1 block seal weeping, gave it a small twist & reseated ok.The compression springs r really strong, ithink less would work because shortly I developed a comp leak. I retqd both heads BUT the lower nuts on heads I added 5 lbs to offset the prod tubes springs, no problems , 5+ yrs.next set, if I ever use again, I'm gonna experiment with a weaker spring, make install a lot easier too.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree w/ morymob, those springs are really strong. i installed the heads before i installed the pushrod tubes. made the head install easier but they did need some serious muscle to get them in.
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