Winston the Westy: Transmission Transition

[msinabottle]

I was going to title this thread, 'The End of the Line,' but I didn't want any of you to think that The Great Pumpkin had been squashed. He's fine... Well, sort of.

One thing I'd long been wanting to do--besides my long-desired trip down I-70 in Kansas to the Cosmosphere, Ft. Riley, and the WWI museum--was to take Winston back to his old stomping grounds in Boulder, where I have friends, and where I could possibly overnight if I had a late engagement, etc. I wanted to show him off, and I wasn't too worried about the drive.

Well, perhaps I should have been... But he did well. Had no trouble keeping up to speed on the Turnpike, handled the winds quite well, and except for the usual Vanagon-induced compulsion of other drivers to pass, tailgate, and cut off, he was holding his own, on the hills.

But...

One of the reason I've been getting 22 mpg with Winston is that I am a shameless employer of what a former trucker friend of mine called 'Georgia Overdrive.' If Winston burns extra gas to climb a hill, I'll get the potential energy back when I coast down the far side by popping him out of gear until I get to the bottom, then it's smoothly back into 4th or perhaps 3rd and up again.

I'm very careful--which is why I noticed immediately on the way there, and on the way back, when suddenly I started getting a strong grinding up from the gearshift lever when shifting into 4th from neutral.

I SHOULD have been double-clutching. Part of that's my own fault, I listened to someone who said you didn't have to worry about matching velocities of the engine to the gear because of the syncros. Multiple people I trust have since and recently told me you have to worry about matching the speed of the clutch and engine because of the syncros.



But, it's not like I was abusing Winston THAT much--he certainly never complained. Until now. And after the return from Boulder I have had a lot of time to consider something rather unpleasant that I discovered during a crawl under Winston. Winston's engine had the codes for December of '84 on it. Winston's body has a sticker mentioning a build date of December of '84. Winston's 091/1 trans... And you can read the heartwrenching, or hard wrenching tale here:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=230958

has a 12/84 build date. There is no evidence that it's ever been rebuilt. After I figured all that out, it was basically a matter of a mental blindfold and a cigarette and waiting for the shot. Three months later...

:snipersmile: :snipersmile: :snipersmile: :snipersmile:

It's the 3/4 Slider.



I had confirmation that it wasn't (ah, wishful thinking!) the gearshift or the clutch or... Because he was smooth as butter when I DID double-clutch him after talking things over with my experts. You don't use the slider that much, that way. So you don't get a grinding. The slider is going. But it isn't yet gone.

For anyone who doesn't yet comprehend what I'm whining about (Winston isn't whining... yet), have a look here:

http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=117

Actually, as I'm sure some of you are itching to point out, I shouldn't whine at all. I've been quite lucky, and I know it! Winston has given me a very gentle warning that it's transmission time, and if I'm very careful, and I darn well plan to be, I can get him down to Blazer (walking distance) under his own power before that slider goes and 'grenades' the transaxle. That would cost me a core deposit and I don't want it to. I also got two years out of a 23 year old transmission that very nicely waited to perish until the work season at the site was over.

Winston goes in Thursday morning. I do NOT have the plant or the tools or the courage to do this myself, and there's a very big reason to go to Blazer--decades of experience and their incredibly good treatment of me in previous encounters. Larry has a local transmission builder in whom he has reason to trust--you, dear friends, are not the only ones to whom I have confided my fears--and if anything else is going on in the drive train, the Bros. Blazer and their veteran mechanics will catch it. If I can avoid the cost of shipping the transaxle, I'll be glad to do it.

But... Any final words of wisdom... Commiseration... Yawns... Will be welcome, or at least indulged. Further bulletins as events warrant... I should be sure that they use the Redline MTL when they fill the new transaxle, unless Larry rolls his eyes too much when I plead with him to do it...

And I am about to be very poor...



Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[jyl]

Poor Winston! He held on as long as he could - 23 years, in fact. Now he's going into that operating room, where he'll be put under, opened up, and the broken bits extracted and replaced.

“Winston: Westy. A van barely alive.”
“Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world’s first bionic van. Winston Westy will be that van. Better than he was before. Better…stronger…faster.”

Hope it won't cost you six million dollars.

[tencentlife]

Imagine Steve Austin only costing 6mil today? What a deal!

Good luck with ol' Winston, Rob. You may be finally taking care of the last lurking problem in the old van. You've dealt with near everything else. Smooth sailing from here on out.

[kevinbassplayer]

This is something that always is in the back of my mind with Wes. I don't think the tranny has been rebuilt ever and is 20 years old (Wes just turned 20) He has given me now 2 trouble free trips to British Columbia and back and many weekend jaunts to the California coast.

On the plus side, that should be the last transmission Winston ever needs! I look forward to the follow-up

[Alan Brase]

A coupla things here. It's not the 3/4 slider that fails; it's the 3/4 slider HUB. The slider itself is a lot more durable. The sliders do have undercut teeth on the 4th gear side. (If you're interested in motorcycle racing, particularly drag racing, you'll know what I mean by that! ) the under cuts do wear out after many miles.
Rick Long has developed a way to regrind them. and he says his are a lot more accurate that he factory grinding. (I'll take him up on that real soon!)
The other thing is, I think what you are seeing here is not typical of a breaking hub. the typical symptom is that both 3rd and 4th gears get real difficult to slide. As the hub splits, it gets tighter inside the sleeve, making the sleeve bind up.
Putting a new hub in will certainly give you more peace of mind. They tend to last a little longer with the 1.9 engines, though.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home

[tikibus]

Here Here!

Bleed the crap out of the Clutch Cylinder?

Double clutching won't do crap for a hydralic clutch. Drove a '48 for years with a grind.

Winston needs a good drain and fill, do it twice. I've got 203K on Tiki's original tranny.

I have no idea if Winston is a Auto Tranny. Here the skinny, The killer is sludge build up in the pan that holds the strainer. For those with AT, now is the time to: 1) replace seal and the screen. Clean, oh so clean, the pan. Done two AT's so far and it looks like your panning for gold at the bottom for the pan. Path is engine, power transfer to tranaxles, AT housing. Ont he right of the pan is a long metal tube that needs to be released to be able to remove pan.

Seal will most likely fall out when the pan is relased, 4 bolts. pop.

Messy factor 8. Swear factor 4. Easy fix, just get the paper gasket aliagned right, Voila!

Rob, Flush the tranny ( if manual ) with oil, if she is gearin' down and growlin', hard to hit, first oil the Girl. over fill if need be. see if that calms her.

PM. CV's too!
_________________
Happy Trails!
Mark
______________
Founding member of the Empire State VW Camping Club.
http://www.empirevwcamping.org/
1984 Westy - Tiki
1997 Honda Civic -The Green Hornet
1971 Volvo P-1800E- needs TLC

[r39o]

Ya, ya, all of the above. Check the obvious first. Clutch, clutch activation, shift linkage, shift bushings, all that external easy stuff.

If it needs a tranny, so be it. At least, it did not fail to the point you can not take it to Blazer. They will tell you exactly (maybe more or less) what is up.

Honestly, if it were me and I knew I was in for a tranny rebuild. I would upgrade. Atleast the SA oil deflector plates and freeway happy gearing. My real goal is a 5 speed! If I were ever faced with a tranny job, I would do the 5 speed. I have an automatic and I will not tempt fate by typing any more about it.

FYI: You were not any more or less abusive to it than needed. The trannies break from time to time. An 89 I know of just did something similiar at 400K miles on the original gear box. It happens. The norm is what GoWesty states. Some last longer. They will never last forever. You are lucky, you did not explode the box, yet. That costs more!

Good Luck!
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

[msinabottle]

I'm not sure what dropped faster--my jaw or my bank balance. But... Well, it's done. 'If't must be done, 'twere best 'twere done quickly.' Larry and the boys at Blazer got me in and out in five hours, and Winston's driving fine. I'm robbing children of their lunch money and checking the sofa cushions for change, but...

All right, the story of the day.

Winston and I both love the new starter--he started and ran and shifted fine. I didn't give him a choice, because I never went past third, and didn't particularly have to, Blazer's about two miles away. There was even a ski event on the way-- a wreck just where they were doing a street repair, Winston qualified, bad transmission and all, on the Giant Vanagon Slalom! Reflexes are everything in this business, kid.

You will I hope all be proud of me when I tell you that when I got into Blazer--at almost exactly 9:00, I did NOT tell Larry 'Replace the transmission.' I said, 'Fix it, please. I rather suspect it's the 3/4 Slider Hub.' Larry said that it sounded very much like that. I said I had errands, they were authorized to go up to $2,000, at which point I would start banging my head into the walls, and that I would call them at 2.

I had business downtown, involving my effort to add a 2nd gigabyte of memory to my 4 year old KX7-333 motherboard and Mushkin, who sold it to me. I had a pleasant walk through old Englewood to the light rail station, took that downtown, and got off at the Denver Convention Center stop, which was engulfed in the Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association (CEDIA) Expo 2007. There were a lot of computer people about. They seemed a nice lot.

Mushkin and I disagreed about the state and shipment of the memory, my only problem with it was that it crashed my computer and didn't work, they said it was fine but did replace it and offer to refund my money if I couldn't get it working. From Mushkin I walked up and through the Denver Civic Center park, which is currently the subject of discussion about the necessity of renovating it. It was absolutely beautiful on a beautiful day, I couldn't figure out WHAT the problem was.

http://www.denvergov.org/CivicCenter/tabid/380780/Default.aspx

I wandered over across Broadway to the State Capitol, a beautiful building, and told a nice ANZAC couple (I think) about Colorado in the Civil War, and a nice Dutch couple about the City Beautiful Movement (the legacy of which was manifest in the view), and then I continued my sight-seeing while Blazer worked over Winston.

http://www.colorado.gov/dpa/doit/archives/cap/first.htm

From the State Capitol I walked over to a Denver landmark I'd never visited, the Brown Palace hotel. The concierge received me, unshaved and scruffy as I was, quite civilly and even gave me a brochure that contained a walking tour of the old building, which has been a hotel since 1892. I will say that I have been in many hotels, and I have never found another as welcoming and as simultaneously elegant as the Brown Palace.

http://www.brownpalace.com/

Then I went to Walgreens, because my headset radio's batteries had died.

I still had two hours to kill before 2, and so I made my way to a place I knew I'd have to visit while my Volkswagen was under the wrench, that being THIS place...

http://www.cafeberlindenver.com/

I wasn't that hungry--but they have... really, really good beer at the Cafe Berlin. I ordered a liter of Paulaner Salvator and apologized to the staff for my impending inebriation as I took my mind off what Blazer's bill was likely to be.

I spent two hours drinking my beer (okay, that only took forty-five minutes) and observing the restaurant-- a good number of the CEDIA people found their way up there, and the joint was jumping. Chatted with the owner and the staff about how I admired their work and how well they all worked together, it was a fascinating study in how to run a restaurant and how much a liter of beer can affect you, as I found out when I had to deal with the aftereffects.

They were very nice to me there, they always are. I called Larry from the Cafe Berlin, while the alcohol was there to buffer the shock of the final figure. I'll say this now--I consider the charges reasonable. But I sure needed that beer.



I made a reasonably straight path back to the train stop, although I got on the wrong train and had to switch, successfully, and almost over stayed my stop, but didn't, and made my bleary way back to Blazer where Larry had my bill. Here's the itemized list:

INSTALL REBUILT TRANSMISSION

Part: $1,295
Labor: 320

Larry had my new transmission on the shelf, but his prices have been going up because his rebuilder gets his components from Germany, and the Euro is slaughtering the dollar. He asked if I wanted my old transmission rebuilt, I did NOT, because it was a quality, well-built unit--that had 23 years of wear on it. I'd rather have one that crapped out a long time previously and had been rebuilt, and there was the time factor, also.

REPLACE CLUTCH ASSEMBLY

Clutch Kit: $219.95
C.S. Seal: 19.95
O-Ring: 2.29

And Larry spotted me the labor. I thought that Nick, the P.O., had told me that he'd replaced the clutch--but Larry said there was at least 70K miles on this one, and he showed me the striated, black scorched disk--it looked pretty shot to me. Oil had gotten onto it, hence the seals and O-Ring, the previous one of which Larry illustratively crumbled in his hands. Larry would have left a functional clutch in if the customer had told him to, but I told him to 'fix it,' and he did, and it needed to be done. Final item:

8 x 80/90 $32

Larry would have been willing to use the Redline MTL, he just didn't have it, and I'd have had to go get it. We agreed that since a fluid change after a rebuild install wouldn't be a bad thing in four or so years, I could change it out, then.

Oh, and a final item:

$123.19 TAX



I looked over at Winston, who looked contrite, as I wondered if my credit card company would authorize the charge. They would. I took the opportunity to ask Larry a few questions while I continued my journey toward sobriety and while they unloaded a '71 Westy from a flatbed that had suddenly had its shifter pop up and refuse to engage.

I asked Larry if I had any more huge expenses likely, he said that the engine would go sooner or later, but it's running beautifully now. I asked what replacement engine he preferred, he said that he's put in Go Westy's of all sizes and no one's had any trouble. We talked about how distance warranties seem to assume that skilled labor on the parts they send out will only come to $15/hour.

The warranty on this transmission is a year or 70K miles, but I'm not too worried about that--Larry's never had one this fellow's built come back. I had a last look at Winston's original transmission. I can call in a week and hear what shape that core was in, but Larry wasn't worried and I don't have a core deposit. I did, as you've noted here, get the van to them before the transmission jammed up. There was a big glob of undercoating on the top of the original box--just interesting.

Well, I can take the hit, and a hit it was. I don't think I'll be able to afford the new upholstery or the trip to Kansas for the foreseeable. But I drove Winston home--and he was fine, although the new clutch was significantly more 'grabby.' Larry also agrees that if I MUST coast, I should spin up the revs a bit before shifting into gear afterwards. All done in the course of a long and interesting day.

And I am very tired...

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[jyl]

Sounds like a nice day, all things considered. You must have a good mechanic there, that's a valuable thing.

I had my transmission replaced, along with a new clutch and rebuilt CV joints, AC recharged, some little things fixed. I know the "ouch in wallet" feeling. But doesn't it drive great with the new trans!? I'm shifting like I was cutting diamonds on a baby's behind - match revs at every downshift, etc.

Congrats on your bionic van.

[bucko]

GoWesty mentions that this "part" grenades at around 150K miles. My odometer is showing 172K, and my transaxle is shifting and running very smooth. I have no clue if the part has been replaced by a previous owner.

In a thread that was posted last year, it was discussed that there is no way of knowing if a pre '90 Vanagon manual transaxle has had the "part" replaced.

So, is it possible that my 84 is still running on it's original square "part", or is it more logical that it grenaded long ago and was replaced while it was driven in Germany by it's previous owners?
_________________
Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia

Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181

[msinabottle]

Well, Bucko, I sincerely hope that your transmission HAS been rebuilt... You can crawl under it and look for stamps, for worn bolt heads that indicate removal and replacement, and pray a lot. I found no clues at all that Winston's transmission had ever been dropped, and there appears to have been a reason for that.

I figured that in 23 years that part HAD to have gone...

I was wrong.

Sincere good luck to you!

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."