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Germanborn
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Hyattsville, MD
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 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: Bernie Bergman Porsche Style Fan Shroud OR Stock Doghouse? |
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Anybody use one of these on their engine? I have been under the notion that the fan housing should use the "flaps & bellows" to optimize cooling. Are the Bergman shrouds simply blowing equal airflow over the cylinders and heads?
It seems like an expensive gamble, but are these shrouds worth the costs? I am at the point in my 1776 build that I need to choose between a stock doghouse fan shroud with flaps, or the Bergman set-up. I am planning on running twin 40 Kadrons, and 044 heads. Separate oil cooler, and 009 distributor. The engine is going in a 356 kit with a stock IRS tranny. The car will be driven daily.
Any thoughts?
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Eric_S
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2007
Posts: 862
Location: Sparks (think Reno) NV
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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BB told me his set up was 1200 cfm while stock is 400 cfm.
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Eric_S
What are all these extra parts? |
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Nater
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Stock.............do a search |
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Nater
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric_S wrote: |
| BB told me his set up was 1200 cfm while stock is 400 cfm. |
I believe that.......mine's a street sweeper.....aircleaners? hell ya! |
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Jason C
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Joined: June 14, 2005
Posts: 1028
Location: Portland Oregon
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blue77bay
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Joined: February 11, 2006
Posts: 631
Location: Brisvegas Australia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| if i was spending the sort of money BB wants ,and you are considering it ,i would do it correctly and get the Raby kit |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79466
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Eric_S wrote: |
| BB told me his set up was 1200 cfm while stock is 400 cfm. |
Bigger isn't always better.
there's more to cooling a VW engine than just moving air.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי |
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MURZI
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005
Posts: 5066
Location: Madisonville, La
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Eric_S wrote: |
| BB told me his set up was 1200 cfm while stock is 400 cfm. |
Bigger isn't always better.
there's more to cooling a VW engine than just moving air. |
Yea....and if you get one...get the purple one...it is high performance. Seriuosly 
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Eaallred
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Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Wish I remembered where it was, but the data i've seen showed the stock doghouse shroud pushing roughly 1400cfm @ 4000 rpm. A measly 400cfm would kill a street motor in short order.
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Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Search...
Call Mr. Bergman and tell him that you are thinking about his system but would like to see his data on comparative tests between the stock system and his before making your decision. See what happens.
Post back with your results.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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werka
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Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1110
Location: Huntsville, AL
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Jake Raby sells a kit called a DTM and they have them for type 1 and type IV motors. He has done comparison head temperature tests, and the DTM is tops on the market. Check out his site.
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/home.php?cat=250 |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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My comparative data is available to paying customers.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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vujade
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: DB, FL, US
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Bernie Bergman Porsche Style Fan Shroud OR Stock Doghous |
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| Germanborn wrote: |
Anybody use one of these on their engine? I have been under the notion that the fan housing should use the "flaps & bellows" to optimize cooling. Are the Bergman shrouds simply blowing equal airflow over the cylinders and heads?
It seems like an expensive gamble, but are these shrouds worth the costs? I am at the point in my 1776 build that I need to choose between a stock doghouse fan shroud with flaps, or the Bergman set-up. I am planning on running twin 40 Kadrons, and 044 heads. Separate oil cooler, and 009 distributor. The engine is going in a 356 kit with a stock IRS tranny. The car will be driven daily.
Any thoughts? |
The Germans have been using 911 Setups on their motors for decades.
Most of them that are using it run huge Type 4 over 2 liters.
I wouldnt buy a Bergmann Shroud just for the basis that he ripped off
one of the German Tuners when he copied that shroud. Stick with one of
these companies...BAS, CSP, LA Performance or the Sharpbuilt Shroud.
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
The Germans have been using 911 Setups on their motors for decades.
Most of them that are using it run huge Type 4 over 2 liters. |
And that doesn't mean anything... People here used them for over a decade as well and din't know any better until a brave soul that wanted the truth actually explored it scientifically.. That same person (me) also used the 9911 shroud and **THOUGHT** it was superior to all others. Since then I haven't used a single one AND I recalled 5 engines that had the systems and upgraded them to the DTM for free after the testing was done.
You'll see that in the past few years the shape of the German shrouds has changed, to bias more of the air to the #2 and #4 cylinders- thats for a reason. (this wasn't a characteristic before I released my findings-FYI)
Also, in Germany the ambient temps are less at peak than most of the US will see on even a summer night or morning. The fuel is different and engine building theory is also different than we have here in the US.
I have data from every German system with the exception of the Klaus system, but I will also have that data in less than 6 months to add to my collection. Lab and field tests have proven one thing:
Axial cooling promotes cylinder head temperature differential.
To date no one has cared enough to attain their own data to counter this. Opinions Vs data is like carrying a knife to a gun fight.
People still uphold the 911 system only due to it's looks, coincidentally most of those are also married to fake blondes with fake tits that can't outperform a virgin.....
Those guys like to look at things, thats all they give a damn about and it cost them performance that they are too ignorant to miss...
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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74 Thing
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Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7636
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Bergmann is a good salesman.
Just because someone recommends something you have to take it for what it is worth.
On the other hand if someone has data to back up their statements it would lead me to believe that the person has done his R&D and knows what he is talking about but I would still review the data first prior to making a decison and plopping down my money.
With that said I would look closely at Jake Raby's information on cooling and that Porsche shroud. Jake does extensive reasearch at his own expense to find out what works best. You may learn a thing or two fron his reaseach.
It is my understanding that the Porsche shroud robs a lot of horsepower from the fan/belt set up and this has been proven over and over from dynos when they run the engine with the fan belt connected and without it connected. Another problem is the cooling to the rear cylinders-it does not provide adequate air flow there and provides too much air flow to the forward cylinders. I think I heard someone say once that this is due to the fact that the shround cannont be positioned far enough back in the VW engine compartment as it can be done in a 911.
Just because other people are using this type of shroud does not mean it is right or the best choice for you. I heard of some extensive work done to some Austrailian shroud to get it to cool all cylinders properly but that was a one shot deal by a motivated person. |
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73stroker
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Joined: June 24, 2004
Posts: 286
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
Search...
Call Mr. Bergman and tell him that you are thinking about his system but would like to see his data on comparative tests between the stock system and his before making your decision. See what happens.
Post back with your results. |
lol -- we'll be waiting a long time for that post |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Bergmann is a good salesman. |
Hey! So am I!!! 
| Quote: |
| Just because someone recommends something you have to take it for what it is worth. |
Thats according to where they attained the info and how it was attained...
| Quote: |
| On the other hand if someone has data to back up their statements it would lead me to believe that the person has done his R&D and knows what he is talking about but I would still review the data first prior to making a decison and plopping down my money. |
I share data AFTER I sell a system. Too many times people have asked for the data, and after more investigation I find that those people were from the dark side, sent over to gather what we have just so they could use it against us. I have been studying cooling systems for FIVE YEARS and have done complete cross country trips to attain my data.. Here is 2Gb of it from 2006 www.aircooledtechnology.com/crosscountry
I don't do this because I have to, to sell systems.. The systems sold just as well before the data was attained, but I wanted to ensure I could support the product with absolute recommendations and real knowledge. That became an obsession that has spent about a hundred grand of my money in the past five years...
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| With that said I would look closely at Jake Raby's information on cooling and that Porsche shroud. Jake does extensive reasearch at his own expense to find out what works best. You may learn a thing or two fron his reaseach. |
Thank you. Some people think that what I have done is biased, or exaggerated, but it isn't... I have proven this time and again by having 3rd party "verifiers" here at my shop watching EVERY test.
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| It is my understanding that the Porsche shroud robs a lot of horsepower from the fan/belt set up and this has been proven over and over from dynos when they run the engine with the fan belt connected and without it connected. |
Exactly- I have seen as little as 6 HP but as much as 29HP lost to the 911 fan on various engines. The average in my MKII TI testing from 04 was 19HP AVERAGE @ 6.5K RPM!
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| Another problem is the cooling to the rear cylinders-it does not provide adequate air flow there and provides too much air flow to the forward cylinders |
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Correct. #2 and #4 starve and #1 and #3 are flooded with air. This makes for head temp differentials that can warp heads and cylinders in short order. The stock system may heat up the 3-4 bank more than the 1-2 bank but at least the pairs of cylinders coupled to the same head are similar in temperature. Having two cylinders share a head with vastly different temperature is horrible for keeping expansion characteristics correct. This is one reason why the 911 engine has six separate heads.
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| I think I heard someone say once that this is due to the fact that the shround cannont be positioned far enough back in the VW engine compartment as it can be done in a 911. |
Its not just the engine compartment, its the position of the crank pulley. The drive belt for the alternator would have to be connected to the BACK of the alternator when used a TI engine if you were planning on sitting the fan far enough back on the engine to be as effective on a 911 engine. The first pair of cylinders on a 911 engine are very far forward from the discharge area of the fan. Air doesn't like to twist 90 degrees in a short radius and on a TI engine with a 911 shroud the air going to the #2 cylinder has to twist further than 90 degrees to be routed to the hottest portion of the head- the exhaust port.
This is one of the biggest problems.
Many times people have asked me "Jake, why don't you design a 911 shroud that works?" My reply is generally that the issues the 911 shroud present when coupled to our much smaller and less heavily finned engines are greater than development can overcome effectively.
| Quote: |
| Just because other people are using this type of shroud does not mean it is right or the best choice for you. I heard of some extensive work done to some Austrailian shroud to get it to cool all cylinders properly but that was a one shot deal by a motivated person. |
Sandeep from Canada used data logging to modify his shroud, he has had good results with it compared to using it off the shelf.
That said, development of the X4CS system is underway here. It is a replica of a REAL Porsche engine, the 547 Carrera.
Coming in 2009:
Porsche inspired, Raby developed.
This one should change everything.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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68suprise
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Van Nuys, California
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I have a chart here that someone done on the VW fan and it showes that at 5000 RPM Fan speed the airflow is about 900 cfm and at 10,000 rpm fan speed the airflow is about 2000 cfm. This is fan speed, not motor speed. The fan spins faster than the motor. I would post this but I dont know how... Sorry. |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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CFM is glorified.. Different types of fans produce different PRESSURE at different CFM ratings..
This is why axial fan flow numbers are virtually worthless when compared to radial fan flow numbers due to the PRESSURE they create.
Pressure is key.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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bajabugman66
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Joined: November 02, 2006
Posts: 612
Location: Clearwater BC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
That said, development of the X4CS system is underway here. It is a replica of a REAL Porsche engine, the 547 Carrera.
Coming in 2009:
Porsche inspired, Raby developed.
This one should change everything. |
wow, just wow
But why two distributors?
CAs
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