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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: Dual relief oiling system. How it works. |
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A lot of people don't seem to understand how the Oiling system works So I will try to explain it with drawings and tests that I did years ago. We tested 100 VW stock dual relief motors.
All motors were disassembled, cleaned and had cranks reground and new bearings installed to spec.
The same oil pump was used in each motor.
The same oil cooler was used on each motor.
All the cases were line bored, full flowed and a flow meter was installed in the loop from the pump to the case.
This first drawing is the oil flow and pressures when cold with a oil temperature at 80 F.
There was a wide variety of pressures and flows recorded and I will explain the findings when I come to them.
I will add new drawings as I transfer the data to the drawings.
Next drawing.
This is the flows and pressures at 120 F oil trmperature. At this point oil is just starting to flow thru the oil cooler.
Next drawing.
Here you see the motors are at operating temps, 180F Everything should be fine but the relief valve is still open. We kept running the motors and most of them reached 225 before we shut them off and most of the relief valves never closed.the relief valves never closed. The motors never went over 225 either. All the excess oil is still running out the control valve. It is open 100%. I will explain this in another drawing.
Next drawing.
Here are the motors at Idle. Notice that the relief valve has closed and the control valve is closed. All the oil is now flowing thru the oil cooler.
Next Drawing.
This is again up to 3000 RPM after Idle at 190F
Notice now the relief valve is closed and the control valve is open.
All the oil is flowing thru the cooler and a lot of oil is flowing out the control valve. Interesting aspect of the relief valve and is that it opens at a much higher pressure than it closes at. Ill explain that in another drawing.
Next drawing. Here is where we started having problems.
30mm pumps.
Notice the high pressures. There were 6 motors that reached that pressure due to different reasons. We lost 6 oil coolers at this point. Had to find the problems and retest all 6. Today this would show up as blown oil filters too.
Notice the increase in oil volumn. . This extra oil has nowhere to go because the oil relief hole is too small. that is why the pressure increases so much.
Here is 120F notice how no oil flow thru the cooler. Pressures are equal everywhere.
Here is 190F The oil is flowing thru the cooler but the relief valve does not close due to the high pressure.
Here the motor goes back to Idle and still the pressure is too high to close the valve.
Here is a section of the oil control valve Notice the opening and closing pressures of the piston.
This is the plug that needs to be removed and drilled.
Oil Flow restrictor. I will update this later.
Last edited by Jimmy111 on Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:19 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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Eaallred Samba Member
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Joined: May 18, 2003 Posts: 5756 Location: West Valley City, Utah
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Those are very nice schematics of the system!
Best i've seen so far. _________________ Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. I have about 40 drawings and some photos Ill post. |
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jamestwo Samba Member
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Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 2203
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ hEY, lOOK, i'M WRONG HALF THE TIME, AND THE OTHER HALF i'M NOT SURE WHAT THE HECK i'M TALKING ABOUT. MY POST ARE FOR MY OWN ENTERTAINMENT VALUE ONLY. |
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neil68 Samba Member
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Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3443 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: sticky!! |
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This should be a new "sticky" ![Very Happy](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) _________________ Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10750 Location: Black Forest, CO
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jbbugs Samba Member
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Joined: September 16, 2002 Posts: 2159 Location: Behind the wheel
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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So what's the story behind the #4 bearing restricter?
Paul _________________ Drag bus! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MOVmKdhX4
69 OG paint Transporter
73' Super Beetle Champcar Endurance Roadracer
Patina my ass, that's a Rust Bucket! |
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neil68 Samba Member
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Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3443 Location: Calgary, Canada
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pupjoint Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2007 Posts: 1142
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
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when oil filter was used? how long were the oil lines? what engine oil grade?
great job by the way. |
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Glenn ![Premium Member Premium Member](./templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_star.gif) Mr. 010
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Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 77587 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Jimmy for posting this. It will be extremely helpful to people.
Thanks Max for putting it in the LINKS topic. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי |
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pupjoint Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2007 Posts: 1142
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: |
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i still dont understand about the4th bearing restrictor although having had read the other article...
so when i tap my case for full flow, how exactly do i avoid this prob? pics? |
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pupjoint Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2007 Posts: 1142
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: |
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jimmy, any tests done on those mexican beetle setup with 30mm filter pumps? |
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jbbugs Samba Member
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Joined: September 16, 2002 Posts: 2159 Location: Behind the wheel
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Has anyone tried John C.'s suggestion of tapping the port at the bearing and drilling a small hole in the plug? The longer stepped plug I would think is impossible to find, and would be difficult to install at the correct depth. Why isn't the small hole in the bearing enough restriction? I appreciate the info.
Paul _________________ Drag bus! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MOVmKdhX4
69 OG paint Transporter
73' Super Beetle Champcar Endurance Roadracer
Patina my ass, that's a Rust Bucket! |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Glen.
Ill get to the restrictor soon guys.
I did this in 1979 and there was no 30mm mexican pump at that time. Sorry. |
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Sigurd Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006 Posts: 2639 Location: Rockford, IL
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Bump for more info about the #4 restriction. I have the galley already tapped, but my plug is half the length of the stock plug. Is there a such thing as a longer pipe plug? |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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What size did you tap the hole and how deep does it go?
Do you have access to a lathe?
The problem is that there is not much room in front of that plug before you hit the sheetmetal. But if you dont mind drilling a hole in the sheetmetal, you could possibly just use a pipe to compression fitting with a 3/16" compression fitting and use either a 3/16 dowel or a 3/16" temperature sensor for a oil temp guage. Not exactly the correct size but it is better than nothing. If you do have access to a lathe you can make a part with out any problem. |
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Sigurd Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006 Posts: 2639 Location: Rockford, IL
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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I tapped it 1/16" NPT. It is about an inch deep. I do not have access to a lathe. |
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Sigurd Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006 Posts: 2639 Location: Rockford, IL
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe a better question is, can I just plug it with what I have, and then when I get my new case for my 1915, drill and tap all the holes except the #4 galley? |
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mailman Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2005 Posts: 1663
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Jimmy....
Thanks for the lesson!! I can't claim to fully understand it yet, but it sure is a step in the right direction. I'm an A/C engine novice, so I'll have to study your drawings some more. (I've driven them for years, and done some of my own work, but never opened an A/C case.)
I don't get how the oil gets back to the sump when the oil control valve is closed.... ![Embarassed](images/smiles/icon_redface.gif) _________________ '64 Bahama Blue Beetle / steel sunroof
'64 Bahama Blue Beetle Sedan (future ragtop) |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
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Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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When the valve is closed, 100 percent of the oil goes to the bearings. Once it's lubricated the bearings, it returns to the sump. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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