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dogcoves
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2005
Posts: 266
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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 Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: Speed & cabinet Weight |
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I've been looking over the threads and cannot nail down an opinion if removing the large westy cabinet in my 70 will give me a uphill speed advantage. On camping trips I find even with my rebuilt 1600sp that the bus crawls up mountain highways when loaded with wife, baby, coolers, camping gear, westy tent, etc... If its just me no problem forth & third gear all the way up but fully loaded sometimes Im in 2nd. I was thinking of putting a smaller cabinet which would open up the hidden window & lighten the weight. What does the cabinet/closet weigh anyhow?
_________________
Current VW: 1987 Westfalia
My Past Volkswagens:
1958 karmann ghia
1963 Beetle
1963 Westfalia
1966 Westfalia
1970 Beetle
1970 Westfalia |
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VDubTech
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2002
Posts: 9156
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Speed & cabinet Weight |
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| dogcoves wrote: |
| What does the cabinet/closet weigh anyhow? |
Next to nothing, certainly not enough to make a noticeable improvement if you removed it. |
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calebmelvin
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2006
Posts: 3140
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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You cabinet weights something between 20-50lbs I would guess, you bus weighs upwards of 4000lbs fully loaded. The minor weight loss is rather insignificant, 1.25% of total weight at 50lbs. I would imagine a 1.25% gain in speed, really going from piss slow to… well you get the idea!
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Caleb
'68 Tagged Manx | My Wanted Ads
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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dogcoves
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2005
Posts: 266
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for the info -- Yeah I guess that removing 50 lbs is not going to do much in the way of speed. I thought the damn cabinet was way heavier, I was way off.
_________________
Current VW: 1987 Westfalia
My Past Volkswagens:
1958 karmann ghia
1963 Beetle
1963 Westfalia
1966 Westfalia
1970 Beetle
1970 Westfalia |
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greenbus pilot
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 1285
Location: Wisconsin: Rustbelt, USA baby!!
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW- I put my Westy on a scale last week. Without me (driver) in it, and gas tank half empty( or half full!), she came in at 3540 pounds.
I don't think 100 pounds either "weigh" will make any noticeable difference. BUT, some serious weight jettisoning would help- spare tire( mine is gone), seats, a few doors, glass, paint, requisite HEAVY VW tool assortment and spares............... you get the idea! 
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static
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2002
Posts: 1845
Location: other Desert Cities
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:25 am Post subject: |
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"Add lightness"
Last edited by static on Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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WestyPop
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2005
Posts: 1734
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: |
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The plodding "speed" up mountain passes was one issue that led me to swap in the pair of Kadrons for my '68 (almost stock) upright SP engine. The combination of the Kads, a properly-set-up 009, & SP heads just seemed to have noticeably more torque within the rev range I was willing to use(shift by 4100rpm), so it would pull the higher gears. Rumor has it a good vacuum/centrifugal advance distributor should net even be better performance(?); wasn't so with the stock dizzy in the mix, but WTH.
More power is always appreciated, especially if the fuel mileage improves also, which it did. The Kads lowered emissions too, as well as dropping the cruising temperatures a bit. A win-win for sure.
OTOH the additional time spent by dropping down one gear and taking the approach to the hill at just a few miles per hour slower, may actually be less than it seems. I'm typically a little impatient, as well as wary of slowing down other traffic, so it was a tough thing to learn. Must admit, however, it's getting easier with the current fuel prices, to try anything that promises to return a few more MPG.
Other than that, one can deal with all the obvious: higher tire pressures, correct dragging brakes & wheel bearings, light alloy rims without wide tires, all season... not 'all-terrain' tires, etc.
Best wishes.
J.R.
68 Westy
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fastmc25
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2004
Posts: 1224
Location: East Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Good post J.R.
One thing folks need to remember is oil cooling..... when you increase carburation and run at higher speeds the addition of an external oil cooler can be a big plus.... that with proper timing and jetting can make a reliable bus with much more useable torque and power.... 
I know long runs up mountainous highways can really slow the average bus to a craw but with proper tuning, cooling and setup you can master those hills with ease.....
I like the suggestion of filling the bus with "Lightness" .... 
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Peace,
Paul
1973 Type181 Kubelwagen (Thing 2 ) 2110cc
1971 Transporter (Pickle) 1914cc
1961 Deluxe Beetle (Christine) 1776cc
1973 Adventurewagen Baja Bus (Clyde) 3.4L
1970 Formula Vee Beetle 2276cc
I identify as: “A Grumpy Old Vet” |
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WestyPop
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2005
Posts: 1734
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| greenbus pilot wrote: |
FWIW- I put my Westy on a scale last week. Without me (driver) in it, and gas tank half empty( or half full!), she came in at 3540 pounds.
I don't think 100 pounds either "weigh" will make any noticeable difference. BUT, some serious weight jettisoning would help- spare tire( mine is gone), seats, a few doors, glass, paint, requisite HEAVY VW tool assortment and spares............... you get the idea! |
What year Westy? Tin top or Pop-top?
Adding to my earlier post: a stock VW bug exhaust system with its dual outlets seemed to help, relative to the constipated factory bus system, with its tail pipe sized for a Briggs & Stratton lawnmower application. Headers supposedly help, but too large a system will kill off low RPM torque, however.
Loaded to the gunwales(4200-4300lbs?), my '68 Westy will maintain 47mph over Cajon Pass out of San Bernardino or the I-5 passes at the ridge, going North out of L.A. And yeah, it's willing to hold 53mph, with cheating & revving it to about 4600 IIRC. But that extra 6mph sure sucks some more fuel; IMO not usually worth it.
J.R.
68 Westy
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greenbus pilot
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 1285
Location: Wisconsin: Rustbelt, USA baby!!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| WestyPop wrote: |
| greenbus pilot wrote: |
FWIW- I put my Westy on a scale last week. Without me (driver) in it, and gas tank half empty( or half full!), she came in at 3540 pounds.
I don't think 100 pounds either "weigh" will make any noticeable difference. BUT, some serious weight jettisoning would help- spare tire( mine is gone), seats, a few doors, glass, paint, requisite HEAVY VW tool assortment and spares............... you get the idea! |
What year Westy? Tin top or Pop-top?
Adding to my earlier post: a stock VW bug exhaust system with its dual outlets seemed to help, relative to the constipated factory bus system, with its tail pipe sized for a Briggs & Stratton lawnmower application. Headers supposedly help, but too large a system will kill off low RPM torque, however.
Loaded to the gunwales(4200-4300lbs?), my '68 Westy will maintain 47mph over Cajon Pass out of San Bernardino or the I-5 passes at the ridge, going North out of L.A. And yeah, it's willing to hold 53mph, with cheating & revving it to about 4600 IIRC. But that extra 6mph sure sucks some more fuel; IMO not usually worth it.
J.R.
68 Westy
(+ others) |
I have a 76 Pop top, full De Luxe Westy, with stove, fridge and sink. BUT, I have a watercooled engine ( 84 Golf), so i am sure it weighs at least a little more than stock. I went on the scale with my 3 year old son and half a tank of gas, no spare tire, heavy tool box( 40 lb), and I had to get out to read the scale- it said 3540. I actually thought it would be more..... 
I do "ok" on hills and freeways, but its not that hilly around here. I 'm satisfied with the fuel economy at 20 -22 mpg.
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3235
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: Speed & Cabinet Weight |
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| greenbus pilot wrote: |
FWIW- I put my Westy on a scale last week. Without me (driver) in it, and gas tank half empty( or half full!), she came in at 3540 pounds.
I don't think 100 pounds either "weigh" will make any noticeable difference. BUT, some serious weight jettisoning would help- spare tire (mine is gone), seats, a few doors, glass, paint, requisite HEAVY VW tool assortment and spares............... you get the idea! |
So what will you do, when you sustain a puncture or buckled wheel rim, travelling on the USA's deteriorating road system; something you have in common with Great Britain, which is reputed to now have about 3·5 million potholes in the roads!?!
Here are two references, which illustrate my point:
"Infrastructure - The cracks are showing - America's tradition of bold national projects has dwindled. With the country's infrastructure crumbling, it is time to revive it", United States, The Economist, 28th June 2008, pages 59~60.
http://www.economist.co.uk/world/unitedstates/disp...N=88024571
Michael Hanlon (Science Editor), "British roads are a disgrace. I've driven on better roads in the Congo ... As a new survey finds 3•5 million potholes in our streets", Daily Mail, Thursday, 3rd April 2008, page 14.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/new...ge_id=1770
When climbing a hill at constant speed, the power needed, is directly proportinal to the vehicle's overall weight and the sine of the gradient's angle to the horizontal.
When accelerating, the power needed to accelerate (in addition to the power needed to maintain constant speed), is directly proportinal to the vehicle's overall weight and its velocity. This can be derived from first principles, by applying differential calculus, to find the rate of change of kinetic energy, which equates to power.
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Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
https://vwt2oc.co.uk
Last edited by NASkeet on Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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I am afraid I am going to have to agree with Nigel here.
Losing the spare tire is no deal. |
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greenbus pilot
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 1285
Location: Wisconsin: Rustbelt, USA baby!!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I agree about the spare. I did not remove it permanently; it only happened to be left sitting in my garage after I pulled it off the front to clean, and I never got around to putting it back on ! Actually, it is not matched in size to my present tires, so I need to replace it with the CORRECT size spare, which I have. I also carry a tire repair kit and pump. I do not fear a flat tire.
POTHOLES, you don't need to tell me what a pothole is! I live in Rustbelt, USA!
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WestyPop
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2005
Posts: 1734
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Ummm... totally agree on necessity of a good spare rim & tire traveling with you. Ya' just never know!
Hey Nigel, in Kaleefonia we're not allowed to use non-handsfree cell phones or compute differential calculus derivations while driving on public roads, but of course, you're totally correct, whether the final answer is given in Newtons, lbs/ft, or ultimately, a form of monetary exchange.
Simply stated... for the sake of fuel economy & powertrain longevity (and being able to hear your stereo?), stay within the high torque area of the engine's RPM range while struggling up the hill, rather than revving the piss out of it into the high horsepower (a relative term for most bays!) upper end of the RPM range.
Better still, as John Muir so eloquently put it, “Come to kindly terms with your ass, for it bears you.”
J.R.
68 Westy
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3235
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Speed & Cabinet Weight |
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| NASkeet wrote: |
| greenbus pilot wrote: |
FWIW- I put my Westy on a scale last week. Without me (driver) in it, and gas tank half empty( or half full!), she came in at 3540 pounds.
I don't think 100 pounds either "weigh" will make any noticeable difference. BUT, some serious weight jettisoning would help- spare tire (mine is gone), seats, a few doors, glass, paint, requisite HEAVY VW tool assortment and spares............... you get the idea! |
So what will you do, when you sustain a puncture or buckled wheel rim, travelling on the USA's deteriorating road system; something you have in common with Great Britain, which is reputed to now have about 3·5 million potholes in the roads!?!
Here are two references, which illustrate my point:
"Infrastructure - The cracks are showing - America's tradition of bold national projects has dwindled. With the country's infrastructure crumbling, it is time to revive it", United States, The Economist, 28th June 2008, pages 59~60.
http://www.economist.co.uk/world/unitedstates/disp...N=88024571
Michael Hanlon (Science Editor), "British roads are a disgrace. I've driven on better roads in the Congo ... As a new survey finds 3•5 million potholes in our streets", Daily Mail, Thursday, 3rd April 2008, page 14.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/new...ge_id=1770
When climbing a hill at constant speed, the power needed, is directly proportinal to the vehicle's overall weight and the sine of the gradient's angle to the horizontal.
When accelerating, the power needed to accelerate (in addition to the power needed to maintain constant speed), is directly proportinal to the vehicle's overall weight and its velocity. This can be derived from first principles, by applying differential calculus, to find the rate of change of kinetic energy, which equates to power. |
In addition to spare wheels, you might also wish to take some steps to mitigate the effect of collapsing bridges, as the following article implicates, in it's reference to 73,784 bridges in the USA which like the one which collapsed in Minnesota, are classified as “structurally deficient”:
"America's creaking infrastructure – A bridge too far gone – The spotlight turns to deficiencies everyone would rather ignore", United States, the Economist, 9th August 2007.
http://www.economist.co.uk/world/unitedstates/disp...N=88161122
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
https://vwt2oc.co.uk |
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greenbus pilot
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 1285
Location: Wisconsin: Rustbelt, USA baby!!
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, we sure got it good here in the colonies.
I am sure that other countries are far superior to the U.S. in some transportation areas, inasmuch as we overspend for our infrastructure, in certain geographical areas of the country, where most of the money goes, and other areas are left hurting, with a seriously degraded system of highways, bridges, and public transportation. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Politicians stuff way too much pork into their agendas, and not enough where it really matters. But when is the last time they lowered your local gasoline tax? I looked yesterday at a gas pump, and it was "only" 57 cents per gallon state, local, and federal tax. How are we gonna dig ourselves out of this hole at that rate? Donations?
Yes, Nigel, we have a serious problem, I agree. But they keep on building new bridges and highways near me. I just can't afford too much more "improvement"! 
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TheTominator
Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2007
Posts: 898
Location: HICKORY, NC. USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: |
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You could take that cabinet out. Then remove one lug bolt and stud from each wheel. Next, remove one headlight, and one taillight. Take out the headliner and any carpet, plus foot mats. I suggest a smaller steering wheel to save weight. Carefully document your before and after mileage. A careful study will show no mileage improvement that could not be be attributed to some other variable. Nothing really to do with vehicles, but the following theory from the study of economics applies here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns
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"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" Albert Einstein - 1901
If I can't curse, I can't fix it.
71 Bus
78 HD FXS Lowrider 1200cc
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