81 westy idle issues

[kwest]

Wow, I just tried to post a very long detailed question and lost it all. So, I will condense now. I purchased an 81 westy manual drive with idle issues. I have spent two days now going through the manual and trying to seat the distributor drive in every possible configuration as finding top dead center and the Bently manual about 12 degrees seems to be useless. I know the firing order, according to Bently, and have replaced the fuel filter, fuel pump, oil filter and gaskets, valve cover gaskets, coil, fuel injectors, spark plugs and wires as well as some of the injector terminal connectors that were broken. My father seems to think the engine might have been water cooled at one point due to a cut hose coming into the engine compartment. I will try and post a picture, but that is how I lost all that I had typed last time. Do you guys have any ideas? The pulley has several marks on it and we tried them all as tdc, but nothing seems to be working. I pulled off the valve cover for cylinders 1 and 4 and put the vehicle in gear, jacked up the right side rear wheel and turned the wheel to watch the valves to see when we were at tdc and then compared to where there were marks on the pulley to match. We are both stumped. Any suggestions? I will try and post the picture of the hose in question.


Thanks
Kevin
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=469800.jpg

[Randy in Maine]

[carterzest]

[Randy in Maine]

I also assume that this is a CA model?

[Lanval]

Kwest,

When I get a chance, I'll go out and take a pic of my set up. The marks for TDC on the pulley are nearly impossible to see. There is a "V" filed into the pulley to show where TDC see is. On mine, it's been painted white so I can see it.

The firing order is marked on the engine ~ it's on the black sheet metal, a German word followed by a series of numbers.

So find the V ~ paint it white and work from there.

Best,

Lanval

[kwest]

Yeah, saw those marks on the pulley. He has the mark painted white also, as well as the mark before and after it. There is also at least two other spots on the pulley that are painted white. We used them all, several times. It is very frustrating, especially since the weekends are the only time I have to work on it.

It actually worked better after the first day of working on it and doing minimal work. The engine timing was way, way off according to Bently, but at least it ran if you didn't leave it idling for too long. Of course that doesn't help when you go to get it smogged. This thing really is an over engineered piece of machinery, to be politically correct.

Kevin

[reluctantartist]

Look at this site to make sure you have the right mark....http://www.type2.com/library/electrip/timemark.htm. It is the same for the aircooled vanagon. I would get rid of the other marks so you are not confused. You may want to mark the scale at 5* ATDC to make it easier. Since this is a cali injection, make sure you have all of the vacuum lines checked as well as any splits in the air intake boot. Follow the Bentley procedure 28.10. .see fig 4. These engines are actually very easy and friendly to work on when compared to the modern VW's but like all engines, you have to make sure everything is there and is working correctly.

Good luck
_________________
1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them.

[Randy in Maine]

Here is how to find the TDC notch on the fan pulley and that notch need to be painted white http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html

I assume that you have a timing scale on this thing to get that painted notch to point to 0º or 5º ATDC or whatever....

Usually we paint dual lines like this "ll" at 180º from TDC (referred to as Bottom Dead Center) to make adjusting the lifters easier to do.

[kwest]

Thanks guys, it is Monday now so I won't be able to truly check into this until Saturday unfortunately as I work 10 am to 9 pm Mon thru Fri, getting home around 10pm after cleaning, etc. and waking up early is a bit too much right now. I did swap out some vaccum lines and also the O2 sensor just for kicks and realigned to the spot I think you guys are pointing to as TDC, and the thing still won't start. Pops is going to see if he can get another distributor sometime this week. I did some searches and found some threads that match my problem, it is just that they never seem to post the resolution to their problems. I found one from like 2005 that sounded exactly like my problem but nobody ever responded to it, so I thank you all for responding to mine and if I find an answer I will definitely post the resolution.

Kevin

[kwest]

OK, the weekend warrior is back again. Like I stated somewhere before I only get Saturday and Sunday to work on this thing and it is getting really old.

If I could preach a little at this time, people who ask questions please make a final post if you get your problem solved stating what the fix was.

I did some research on this site and found a couple posts which match but with no conclusion. So, my main problem right now is the more I fix the worse it gets So, my question to the gallery is if I have a new coil, and it is getting the 12volts that it needs to work, and I cannot get it to spark on a ground (engine case, etc.) the old school way does that mean it is a bad coil? I read other posts about checking the O2, Hall, distributor connection, etc., but with nothing but the battery connected to the coil I should get a spark to ground should I not? With my older Datsuns, etc., I always did.

I mean, a coil is a coil right? It gets voltage and spits out voltage. If the primary and secondary are OK, it should work, right? I looked at pg. 28.10a in Bentley and get .8 ohms instead of .52 to .76 and I get 3570 instead of 2400 to 3500, so even though the readings are a fraction high, they are pretty much right at the top end of the acceptable specs.
Oh, and according to the SAB guy, I now have the proper spark plug wires. So, where's the spark?

Thanks
Kevin

[FNGRUVN]

To check if the coil fires you need to interrupt current flow through the primary coil while holding a conductor(coil wire)that is connected to the secondary coil(the center of the coil) close to a good ground. It should spark. Judging by the resistance measurements you gave us, I'd say the coil is good. Are you sure you're checking for spark correctly?

[kwest]

Well, it always seemed pretty easy on every other vehicle I had, but on this hunk of, to be politically correct, machinery who knows. I am holding the end metallic portion of the coil wire next to, and touching sometimes, a ground. I even put an old sparkplug on the end of the wire and held the end of it next to one of the screws on the engine block. My father saw a slight spark once, but I could never get one and he never saw one again after the first time. All in all it has been over a month of weekend frustration. Pops was the shizzle in his day, but he is going to be 82 this year and it is getting a bit tough for him to make it out to my house on the weekends to play with the wee beastie. Plus, I am sure the mind isn't what it used to be coupled with the last twenty or so years of his career working on Japanese nice and easy to work on engines. So, I am confused.

[FNGRUVN]

What was the original problem? I reread your OP and didn't see it. You need to get a good base line. Get the engine at TDC. You can do this by turning the engine over by hand while holding a finger or some sort of plugging device to feel when compression starts to build on number 1 cylinder. Continue to rotate engine until the piston is at the very top of its stroke. BTW, number one cylinder is the one toward the front of the van on the passenger side. When the piston is at the very top, check to see where the tip of the rotor in the distributor is pointing. It should be pointing to the post on the cap that leads to number one or at least really close to it. If it's close, loosen the clamp bolt on the distributor and rotate the distributor housing until the rotor tip lines up with the post to number one(there should be a mark on the top rim of the dist. housing to make this easy). At this point your timing will be too retarded, but at least it will fire and you can set the timing later. Also check to make sure points are set correctly. There should be a .016" gap when the points are fully open. That should at least get you into the ballgame and keep trouble shooting from there. Keep us posted.

[kwest]

I originally bought it for $900 off of this website, and thought I was getting a great deal because it started but didn't idle for very long before cutting out. It actually ran, but seemed to be missing, which I found out was probably due to a bad cable on the 3rd cylinder, but the timing was so far off that it shouldn't have ran. Anyway, things just started getting more complicated the more we looked into the problem, and have now replaced the fuel pump, fuel filter, oil filter, transfer case gaskets, oil plug gasket, fuel injectors, spark plugs, distributor, coil, spark plug wires, hall effect sensor, O2 sensor, a few terminal ends on the wires leading to the fuel injectors. Basically the computer module and the idle sensor are all that is left to replace. Granted more than half of that stuff probably had nothing to do with the issue, but I figured it should probably be replaced anyway and I would still have gotten a great deal on a nice van because it doesn't have any rust or body damage to speak of and the inside is very nice as well. I just need to get the darn thing running. I know the wires to everything have never been replaced and will probably need to be as they are brittle, but I just need to be sure I am getting a damn spark, because I don't appear to be getting one.

[FNGRUVN]

I hope you got a screamin deal on all those parts you've put in. You need to stop replacing parts and start doing some trouble shooting. Start with the Bentley and go through all the checks. Get a hold of one of the "Idiot" books. He breaks things down and explains how things work. It's a good book to have. Another good source is the official VW training manual on the fuel injection system. The FI system was probably the problem in the first place. At this point, though, you might want to bite the bullet and take it to a good mechanic. He(or she) will at least get you on the right track and then you can take it from there.

I've got an '80 westy and I went through all the checks in the Bentley and the VW FI training manual and found a couple of problems that I would have missed had I not done the checks. My FI system works just like it should now. Get the books. Read the books. The books are your friend. Good luck. I hope you get it running. You'll love the van.

[terryg]

[Lanval]

So, when you say "an idle problem" does that mean it runs as long as your foot is on the gas? Or does it die regardless of fuel input?

Once it dies, what happens? If it runs at all I can't see the coil being an issue... but I'm wondering if it starts, runs rough then dies, repeat? If you could be a bit more precise about how the problem is manifesting, that might help.

The idiots guide will assist greatly with the tuning/timing stuff. I assume your car is a CA car with pointless distributor...

Best,

Lanval

[Sheesh]

I got a sweet deal for $4,500.....$6,000 more later - mostly parts - I'm addressing my tuning issues. The upside? I sure know my vehicle!



There are few sweet deals with these rigs, I've come to believe......

[kwest]

Well, I probably haven't put more than $400 or $500 in parts so far, and I was thinking that I would have to put in $1500 or so just cause of the age, so I figured $2500 or less would still be a good deal with how nice the body and interior are. Especially with the disgusting prices Gowesty charges for reworked vans. I know that is a hot topic on this board so please nobody try and justify their prices.

The $900 price was mainly because the seller was moving that weekend and needed a quick sale. I just can't seem to figure out why something as simple as a spark is so difficult to figure out on this thing. I did check the Bentley manual and ran a lot of the tests, and figured out the Bentley isn't as great as many make it out to be. Pictures in the wrong order, some things spelled out in great detail and others left to the imagination. Of all the tests I have run things seem to be coming out correct, yet no spark. It is madening I tell you. Even after I get it running I am wondering if I can ever trust it. I purchased it for trips with my kids, you know weekend outings since I work soooo many hours during the week, but with all of this fiasco and a lot of the "money pit" posts I have read on this board I am quite frankly scared that the damn thing will break down on every trip. Definitely not what I had intended.

[kwest]

Oh, and to top things off, my business is going under so I will be claiming bankruptcy soon and needed this van to be an every day driver. Wow, my timing is almost as bad as this freeking vans timing Can a family of 5 live in one of these if they had too..........Lord help me, at least I can still laugh a bit, for now.

Kevin