Trying to install Ford solenoid

[BugMan114]

howdy yall, i keep hearing about people installing ford solenoids, but just now realized that its not to replace the VW solenoid. so.... has anyone here ever replaced the VW solenoid, with a ford one?

I basically ran a battery cable from the starter motor connection to the ford solenoid, then from the ford somenoid, to the battery, and the ignition wire to the "S" terminal on the ford solenoid, and the starter turns, but doesn't enguage the flywheel.

i work at advance and tried the same set-up on the tester machine, and it will spin the starter, but the gear will not pop out to hit the flywheel, but if i wire it to the VW solenoid, the gear pops out. Soooo, obviously something in the VW solenoid sends power somewhere else to enguage the gear, because centrifical force is not enough to force the gear out.

my question is, how do i do this. if i take the VW solenoid off, will there be a contact in there i can simply tie into the battery cable? my whole reason for doing this is simply for ease. its much easier to mess with the solenoid, or to get to the solenoid, in case i can start it (can touch the contacts wit a screw driver easier), cause my fat ass won't fit under the bug to get to the solenoid . also when i remove the starter, i won't have to mess with all the wires, just the one battery cable. below is a pic of what i'm talkin bout.

That is how its hooked up now. i connected the batt cable to the VW solenoid starter motor side, simply because it will connect the motor, to the cable. the VW solenoid is completely bypassed. but how do i hook up whatever connection goes to the part that makes the starter gear pop out?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR

Aircooled Airheads

Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!!

[MURZI]

The ford solenoid is designed to help with voltage drop at the solenoid switch wire....NOT the battery cable. Run your ign switch wire to the ford solenoid as pictured, BUT then run a 10 gauge wire to one side of the solenoid and on the other side run a wire to where the original IGN wire was on the VW solenoid. The battery cable stays in the original spot.

http://laudeman.com/bug_solenoid.html
_________________
62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam

[BugMan114]

i know about that, i just want to replace the VW solenoid with a ford one, so i can have the solenoid in an easier to access place. later i might even buy another one, for the ignition wire, but i'm not worried about that now. has anyone ever done this?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR

Aircooled Airheads

Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!!

[MURZI]

The VW solenoid pushes the starter drive out when engaged...you can't bypass it.
_________________
62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam

[BugMan114]

does something in the solenoid itself move, or does it just send the power somewhere?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR

Aircooled Airheads

Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!!

[nsracing]

Georgia, huh?

The one wire coming from the Ford solenoid will hook up to the "KEY side" of the VW starter solenoid.

The idea is to fire the VW starter/solenoid directly from the battery when you turn the key on. Solenoids are just relays basically. Relays are used to control large voltages using smaller voltages.

Did I just confuse you more?

The VW starter and solenoid are hooked up in series. If you power it up from one end (by the solenoid terminal), it will power up all of it. But if you power the middle, as you have in the pic, only the starter will turn.

The way you have it hooked up is the way to check just the starter.

The way to test the whole thing, you just jump power to the large cable connector on the VW solenoid.

Hope this helps.

[MURZI]

Let me backup, You can technically "sort of bypass it" if you hook it up as in your pic but run a heavy jumper between the battery cable and the solenoid switch wire. By doing this, when you hit the key it will be like jumping the terminal with a screwdriver. DIRECT POWER.

The solenoid is an electromagnet that pulls in plunger which in turn kicks out the drive. It has moving parts.

SO, if the plate that contacts the terminals, burns in the VW solenoid the ford solenoid will not help.

I will try to find you a internal pic.
_________________
62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam

[BugMan114]

thanks, but i under stand all that, but my question is, is there a way to hook it up, so i can get rid of the VW solenoid? does the solenoid simply send powe to both the motor, and the gear mechanism, or does it send power to the motor, and have something mechanical inside to activate the gear to pop out? if so can i simply wire it to the starter motor?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR

Aircooled Airheads

Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!!

[BugMan114]

oh, disreguard the above post, we posted at the same time, lol.

so the solenoid does have moving parts then, damn.so here's my next question, is there still a way to solder, or connect it all together, so even tho the solenoid is there, its only functiuoning as the gear mechanism, and not the soleoid. get what i mean? i guess an internal pic will help best. perhaps an exploded view, or a pic of someone who's taken one apart before. thanks for all the help so far
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR

Aircooled Airheads

Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!!

[nsracing]

You CANNOT bypass the solenoid. Besides its job pushing the gear out, it is also a SWITCH to connect the power to the starter. This is all done when you power that VW solenoid.

[MURZI]

In this pic you can see the two terminals of the solenoid, the battery + and the solenoid to starter motor terminal. When you energize the solenoid it pulls a contact plate in and connects the two terminals to spin the starter....AND it pushes the drive out. Most of the time when a solenoid goes out it is the contact disc that gets burnt from repeated contact to the two large terminals. On Gm's you could take it apart, sand it down and get some more miles out of it.

In your PIC connect a 10 gauge wire from the lower black dot on the starter to the I terminal on the VW starter solenoid. It will work if your VW solenoid is good.


Another PIC

_________________
62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam

[BugMan114]

ahh i see now.

So now i gotta ask, can i have it so that the contacts are always in the "ON" position? so when power is connected to the starter it will automatically enguage? i still want to bypass the ignition wire connection on the VW solenoid. SO from the pic it seems that the ignition wire makes the top connection make contact which in turn sets off the gear mechanism, and the starter motor, so could i simply solder, or somehow make the top connection come into contact with whatever is touches, so that i essentially bypass the actual solenoid/ relay part, but still have the gear mechanism part?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR

Aircooled Airheads

Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!!

[BugMan114]

[MURZI]

This setup will work. I added a blue wire on the red starter. The VW solenoid CAN NOT be taken out of the circuit as the starter gear will never kick out.
_________________
62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam

[BugMan114]

ahh, i get it. That will work. but i wanted to do it in a way that would eliminate the relay portion of the solenoid, and keep the gear mechanism part. so is there a way i can tie the bottom connection to whatever the relay connects? what exactly does the relay part connect? the two big terminals? what if i connect the two big terminals together? doesn't the relay connect the top terminal to something, thus eliminating the eed for the relay? can i connect the top terminal directly to that something? thanks for all your help so far, i really appreciate it.
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR

Aircooled Airheads

Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!!

[BugMan114]

OH

When you touch the two connections with a screw driver, in a normal VW, doesn't that completely eliminate the relay, and crank the car (so obviously the gear is kicking out)? so if i connect the two big terminals, won't that achieve what i want?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR

Aircooled Airheads

Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!!

[MURZI]

In your pic, you HAVE bypassed the way the disc inside the solenoid connects the two large terminals. BUT, you still have not energized the solenoid to push out the drive.

Bottom line, the pic above will work.
_________________
62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam

[BugMan114]

so would this work? Notice the "bridge".

its the same as touching the two terminals with a screw driver, right?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR

Aircooled Airheads

Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!!

[MURZI]

No

just use my pic with the blue wire.

On the red starter, a typical Vw has the battery cable hooked to the 12 o clock dot and the ign hooked to the 3 oclock I. When you energize the solenoid from the ign it activates the electromagnet which in turn pulls the plunger in. The plunger has a disc on the end of it that when pulled in connects the two terminals 12(power in) and 6 oclock(power to motor) which in turn spins the starter. The pulling also kicks out the gear.

Clearer....

in your pic the jumping would do nothing more than you have already done by connecting the Big battery cable to the 6 oclock terminal. You have bypassed the disc.

Now unless the coil in the solenoid shorts and it does not pull in and kick out the gear it should always work.

Just hook it up like in my pic with the blue wire...use 10 gauge. It will work.
_________________
62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam

[Scott Novak]

BugMan114,

What you don't seem to understand yet is that the solenoid inside the VW starter also acts as a timing device so that the gear is engaged BEFORE the power is applied to the starter motor.

You could disconnect the VW relay from the starter motor, and then connect an external Ford relay to the starter motor. But if you energized the VW solenoid and the Ford relay at the same time, the starter motor would try to begin spinning before the gear was completely engages and it would probably chew up the ring gear on the flywheel.

Now if you thought that the VW starter relay was seriously deficient you could disconnect the VW relay from the starter motor. Connect the VW relay to the Ford Relay. The Ford relay could be connected between the battery and the starter motor. The keyswitch would energize the VW solenoid which would engage the gear and then the VW relay would energize the Ford relay which would then energize the starter motor.

A bit Rube Goldberg and over complex. Why bother? The VW solenoid already works fine.

The problem is that there can be so much resistive losses from the battery through the ignition keyswitch to the VW solenoid that the solenoid doesn't have enough current to engage. That is why people use a Ford Relay. To supply enough voltage and current to energize the VW solenoid and relay.

Scott Novak