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Need some help on replacing power steering lines please?
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Creativemind
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject: Need some help on replacing power steering lines please? Reply with quote

I have a 2.1L Automatic 1988 Wolfsburg. Just rebuilt the engine and had all new hoses put on.

So I just found a micro pin hole leak in my cooper high pressure line. Looks like the east coast winters killed it. Got a layer of rust on it.

Here are some images:

Large power steering line, brass installed in 2007
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Close Up
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Here you can see the rusting high pressure line
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I want to replace them with Hydraulic lines but need some help on the details of what is needed.

Walrus was kind enough to post some details on having them custom made but I need someone to confirm his data please.

I assume I need to go to hydraulic shop or tractor shop to get them made?

I called around and most shops don't do metric, they tell me they can give me 3/8th.

Walrus's instructions for building 2 Power Steering lines:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=147368&highlight=steering+fluid+leak

High Press line
11.5' long, two female compression fittings, 16x1.5mm
Needs to be flex industrial stainless braided rated 4200lb. I.D. is 5/16".
I believe I used 3/8". Connects where metal line junctions with the 1.5' section of hose held onto pump with banjo bolt.

Low Press line
13' long, Needs to be rated 400lb? 1/2" I believe.
Connects from Reservoir to rack. I cut the pipe 4 inches from rack and connected by sliding hose over pipe and used hose clamps. Other end hose clamps to reservoir.

What is connection for the front of the van to the rack on the high and low pressure lines?

Is this an easy job for one person to do in their backyard?

How long should it take?

If I brought the lines to a mechanic with a lift how long should it take to replace the lines and add the fluid?

Do the lines need to be bled out or anything? A special process for testing it and making sure its installed properly?

Thanks,
Robert
NY
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Timwhy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to be doing this same job , maybe this week if I get all the parts.

Some info that may or may not help. I don't know for sure the exact specs of the fittings. I got the same infomation that you have here and I am waiting to get my parts from Parker Hose.

In the first picture is my rack that I have sprayed PB Blaster on the HP and LP power steering fittings. The top nut is the HP side, bottom nut LP side. The top nut is a 22mm, Bottom is 21mm. I bought s set of flare wrenches, these are what you want to use when doing work on brake lines, pwoer steering line and some plumbing. They get a good grip on the nut and you'll be less likely to break one of them. The PB Blaster helps loosen them up as well as loosening up the rust that may be on the nuts.

The second picture is the Banjo line from the Power Steering Pump. The fitting on this one takes an 19mm flare wrench. I sprayed all the fittings with PB a day before I attempted to loosen them up and after I was successful in loosening them I tightened them all and gave them another blast or two with the PB.

Being carefull and taking your time I don't see me taking longer than an hour or two to change the HP and LP lines with hydraulic hose that I will get at Parker and recharging the system with fluid.

It seems that there are people that know what exactly you are looking for here on the Samba but are unwilling to give you this information.....Maybe it's a money making thing for them and they don't want to give the infomation that may cut into their business? "I'm just Saying?"

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank Condelli makes a hose upgrade to fit. These are very good from what I hear.
http://www.frankcondelli.com/hose.htm
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wondering what it costs to have a hydraulic shop make up new lines with the correct fittings. Anyone price it out?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Less than $100 for the HP side with braided SS line.

If you don't want braided then there is cheaper alturnatives.
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Creativemind
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:20 pm    Post subject: Costs for the rubber lines Reply with quote

I have done some basic costing based on what Walrus provided.

Basically the High Press 4000 psi hose with a burst rate 16,000 psi will run $70 dollars for 11.5 ft.

With the female connectors for the high pressure line quoted at 3/8th size it would be a total of $87 dollars which include installation of the connectors on the hose at NAPA. The line is braided as well between the layers of rubber. It's one of there most expensive hoses available.

At this point I just need to get the exact hose connectors before I go over there and have it made.

Here are some photos:
This is the line that has a pin hole leak in the copper.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is a close up the section to the right where it all connects from the pump and ATF fluid container. The top one is the one that is leaking from directly under the center of the van.
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This image from the section on the left where there is an interconnect from one metal section to another copper section. The black stuff is truck bed coating used slow the rust on the east coast.
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Here's a nasty shot of when I was trying to locate the pin hole. It was coming out like a super fine needle of pressure hitting the other hoses in the area thats why everything is soaking wet in RED ATF!
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I tried my best to make a patch to be able to try and drive it to my mechanics to put on the lift but it's still leaking. Here's what I did. Rubber High pressure hose, slit down the middle filled it with some rubber gasket sealant that stays pliable.
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So if anyone can help out with the inner diameters of the hoses, connector sizes and types it would help. I just don't know what the size of the hose is suppose to be 3/8"? Inner diameter?
Size of fittings? 16x1.5MM = what in non metric?

I found this but I need someone to confirm it please:
Female DIN 24 Cone Swivel
Light Series With O-Ring
I.D.=3/8
THREAD SIZE=M16X1.5
NUT HEX=19
LENGTH=2.06"
CUT-OFF=1.15"

Indeed Frank Condelli and Ken Wilford at Vanagain always make great stuff but seeing that the van is my daily driver and I can not really wait for shipping and the high price of shipping I figured it would be best to make it locally with a good shop.

Thanks in advance,
Robert
NY
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=383712

This is the thread that I asked the same information as you.

I think that you are looking for a fitting that will work on HP hydraulic hose. At Parker Hose they have a HP "Crimp swivel nut " that will work with the specs that you state. item number 10691N-6-6. These fitting will not work with the SS braided hose, they use a standard fitting,(Parker does not make this particular metric fitting we need to work with their SS braided hose) which connects to another metric fitting on the rack and the pump sides.

You should give Parker a call if you have one local, or just go to the store with all your information and ask them for assistance. I think they will be able to get you what you want pretty easy.

The length of the hose will not be a problem. As I understand it, you want the line not to be longer than it has to be. Keeping in mind that they can make two smaller lines joined together with other couplers.

The fittings that I am waiting on are the same specs as your application, once I get them I will try them out on the rack and pump sides to see if they fit. I will report any and all success.
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Creativemind
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now I am not sure I have enough information to go to any parts supplier to give them specs I need for those HP hose.

That's why I am asking for someone to supply them to me. That way I can walk in there and just hand them the details and have it made.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:58 am    Post subject: Update the Spec's on making your own P.Steering hoses Reply with quote

So in contacting lots of people and doing research I have found the following: Can someone please confirm this info for me please?

My research list:
Connector type & size for High Pressure and Low Pressure connector to the front and rear of the van?

High Pressure Line Connectors
(2) Female connectors on each end.*
Female DIN 24 Cone Swivel
Light Series With O-Ring
Hose I.D.=3/8
Hose I.D.=9.50(mm)
THREAD SIZE=M16X1.5
NUT HEX=19MM
LENGTH=2.06"
CUT-OFF=1.15"
CUT-OFF=(mm)29.16

NEED Low Pressure Connector to the Front of Steering Rack SPECS PLEASE
CAN SOMEONE PROVIDE THIS INFORMATION PLEASE?
Female DIN
Light Series With O-Ring ?
I.D.=
THREAD SIZE=
NUT HEX=
LENGTH=
CUT-OFF=

Hose Size and Pressure Rating needed for the High Pressure & Low Pressure Hoses:
Based on basic research I have found the following - can ANYONE confirm?
Sizes:
High Pressure - 3/8" ID
Low Pressure - 3/8" ID, SAE J189 hose

Pressure
High Pressure 4000 PSI Minimum / Max burst rate 16,000psi
Low Pressure 400 PSI

Hose Type:
Braided Hydraulic Line ( Optional Stainless Steel )

Length:
High Pressure - 11.5' long
Low Pressure - 13' long

Other Recommendations:
1. Place Rock Guard Coil Around Hoses that are exposed under the van to prevent damage to the hoses.
2. Purchase foam pipe insulation at Home Depot or Lowes types of store to cover hoses to prevent damage. Wire tie them to the hoses before tying to coolant piped running in the center of the van.

New Photos of the Front Steering Rack Connectors:
The hose on the left is the LP and the one on the right is the HP.
Both are currently Copper. The left using appears to be in good shape as the shop placed a plastic cover over it which has really helped with preventing the rust, the exposed HP line on the right you can see is rusting.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In this shot you can see the entire line and how the HP line is curved.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thank you to anyone on the forum who can provide assistance.

Regards,
Robert
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Timwhy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the new power steering hose plus fittings today. Installed in about an hour, but had to run to the store for bigger zip ties and extra Dexron.

The above specs are correct as to the fittings, fit like a glove from rack to pump banjo hose. 11 1/2' of hose is also correct for the HP side.

I was considering using SS braided hose, until the guys at Parker said just don't kink it cause it will ruin it.

So I went with lower priced HP hose and they said I should not have to worry about any dry rot. Hose should last for a long time. Total from Parker was $113 for just the HP side hose plus the fittings.
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On a side note, while the kits offered are nice the total of all the parts from Parker when I asked should not be more than $130 plus or minus $30 depending upon what you are looking to get for hose quality and certain fittings.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's nice work tracking down all the info. It will be useful if I have to do the job. For me though, I'd have to think about if it would be worth the time to run around and have a hose made for $130 when I can sit and order it for $150. Then I'd worry if I had all the right parts and specs. I like when someone else can do the leg work and keep the prices reasonable and save me some trouble. I'm glad it worked out for you though. Nice post and pictures. Thanks!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDXWesty wrote:
For me though, I'd have to think about if it would be worth the time to run around and have a hose made for $130 when I can sit and order it for $150.


I may have missed it in the thread, but where can you order the hoses for $150? Thanks!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aquaboxa wrote:
PDXWesty wrote:
For me though, I'd have to think about if it would be worth the time to run around and have a hose made for $130 when I can sit and order it for $150.


I may have missed it in the thread, but where can you order the hoses for $150? Thanks!


You're right. I thought I saw it somewhere but now I can't or the prices have changed. It was listed in the link above for $185. For that it's worth some running around.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject: How to make New High Pressure Power Steering Hoses! Reply with quote

Okay People,

Here's the definitive answer on making the HP Power Steering Hose.

Total time required to make the hose 10 minutes at Parker Dealer.*

1. Locate a Parker Hose & Fitting Hydraulics Dealer Near You.

2. Tell them you want the following:
For Straight Fittings:
Metric Fitting: #1C343-10-6 (2) - This is what I used for PSPump & Rack connections works great.

For a curved 90˚ rack fitting use the following:
Parker #10691N-6-6 crimp swivel nut coupler to attach hose to Parker Metric swivel adapter 6-10L HXU86-S (confirm with Parker Dealer as I did not use this setup myself)*

Hose:
Hose # Parket 302/301-6 (Rubber 3/8th" core with Steel Braided Shell and Tough Wrap Exterior)

Length:
High Pressure - 11.5' long

Installation Process:

You will need:
19MM Wrenches
PB Blaster
Container to drain fluid into
Rags
Metal Brush to remove any rust around the fittings
Flashlight
Longs Black Plastic Wire Ties
Scissor
Dex/Mercon ATF)

1. Disconnect the HP line at the rack and check your fittings fit properly.
(If you use the straight fittings above which is what I used it will.)

2. Disconnect the HP line at the PS Pump. You will need two 19MM wrenches & some elbow grease!

3. Let the fluids drain out of the lines if you can before cutting them up into sections for easy removal.

4. Once the fluid is drained from the lines, cut the lines in 2-3 foot sections so you can easily remove the corroded metal lines.
(Wear Protective GLOVES! to prevent metal debris going into your hands and to prevent the ATF from getting all over you! If they are really corroded wear Eye protection as well.)

5. Wrap the ends of the New Parker Hose Connectors with some plastic bags and some electrical tape.
(this is done so no dirt or debris from the undercarriage will clog and contaminate the fitting connections when feeding the hose through.)*

6. Get a good flash light so you can see where your putting the hose.

7a. Use the flashlight here ad feed the Hose from the middle of the Van forward following the path of your coolant lines as they flow above the gas tank. *Be careful here as you have venting lines and other hoses that you do not want to disturb so do not forcibly push the hose. Look and see where it is going first. I placed my hose above the existing gas hoses as to not put pressure on any of them.

7b. Once you have the front area cleared you can now push the line forward a bit then move the hose toward the back of the van, thread the hose above your rear brake line hoses.

8. Clean off all the connections on the Rack and PS Pump. Be sure to remove any debris, rust etc. around the connectors. A wire brush can be helpful here.*

9. Connect the front High Pressure Fitting first and lock it down tight.

10. Connect the Rear PS Pump Fitting. Lock it tight.

11. Clean up any ATF leaking on the hoses and connectors with your rags or paper towels.

12. Now grab your Plastic Wire Ties which need to be long, grab your scissor and locate the small spaces within the frame there next to the coolant lines which can feed your Ties through. They are clearly visible if looking from the passenger side of the van. I used 3-4 of them in the mid section of the frame. Works great.

13. In the rear of the van you will place one just over the passenger side rear axle as there is also a space which you lock your tie to on the frame with the hose.

14. Check up front for an appropriate location to Wire Tie the front hose.

15. Lastly check it all again for a good fitting and appropriate routing and tightness on your wire ties, once done with all that your onto filling and bleeding the system.


Adding the ATF to the Power Steering Fluid Container and Checking the System:

1. Add your Dex/Mercon ATF to the container at the recommended level.
2. Disconnect the center position wire feeding into the distributor (note not to touch this or have it near any flammable substances)*
3. Turn the ignition key and let the power steering pump cycle a couple of times. This should remove some of the air in the pump. (sparks will come from this disconnected wire! stay clear!)
4. Check the ATF level it may need to be topped off.*
5. Reconnect the center distributor cable back to the center position on the distributor.
6. Start the Van
7. Slowly turn the wheel left to right all the way in each direction till it locks fully to that side!
8. Check the level of the ATF now, most likely it will need more, fill to recommended level.
9. Again turn the wheels left to right all the way this time a little faster!
10. Check again the ATF level fill and if necessary top off, if you did top off repeat the process of turning and checking till the ATF level is consistent. Once it is consistent you are done.

I hope this helps everyone out there who is not a mechanic like me.

Thanks to "TimWhy" for his assistance with the Parker Hose #'s!

Total removal time, install time, filling & bleeding was 45 minutes with a lift. Without one I would expect to be 1hr and 30 minutes of work time.

If you would rather not go through this cable making process and not save yourself some serious coin then please visit any of the recommended Vanagon Specialty vendors for pre-made solutions.

Here are a couple of vendors to get you started:
Vanagain.com, Van-Cafe.com, GoWesty.com, Busdepot.com, FrankCondelli.com etc..

Regards to all,
Robert
NY



(Disclaimer: the information provided above has been collected from various sources, I am not responsible if any damage occurs to your vehicle due to erroneous information.)*
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sticky nomination!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those that are also looking to replace the low pressure side?

The fitting is NOT the same as the High Pressure side!

The Low Pressure side is M18X1.5, this is also metric.

One other note, if you are planning on using the original Low Pressure fitting and a few inches of the existing line to clamp a return hose? Make sure that you get 1/2" hose or you won't be able to get the hose over the existing line to clamp it. The return line is larger than the High Pressure feed and you'll need 1/2" hose!!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:28 pm    Post subject: I have an extra set Reply with quote

I built a set for myself and installed it, and made an extra in case anyone was asking. This is the pressure and return line with fittings. You will laugh at how lame the stock system is once you put in the flex line system. It will outlive your Vanagon, it is simple to run and just sweet. The fittings are key. I will look for the receipt and upload it as it has all the requirements and prices. That set is still sitting around here if anyone is interested. Peace, Johnny Utah
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I uploaded my receipt from building my power steering lines, and thought I would follow up (thanks for the reminder) with the actual parts and dimensions. You can just print this out and hand it to any local hose shop and they will know what to do.

I thought this might piss a few people off but, if it is just some basic tacit knowledge that is keeping people from a basic and necessary Vanagon upgrade, and those with the knowledge are charging WAAAAAAY too much for the service, well, I gotta spill the beans.

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OMG, upside down, that is too awesome, and it's too small! I do fine work if I do say so myself. F*#k it, I'm going to bed. I will get the nerve to mess with that scanner again later...maybe.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I picked up theHigh PSI hose today and my Flaps crossed the Parker fitting number with Gates brand and those are the fittings I went with. The reason is something to do with the warehouse not paying bills or something and the Parkers would have to have been C.O.D. Her is the result: Gates - #G25645-0610 Description: 6G-10FDLORX. Hope this helps anyone who can't acquire parker fittings.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just did this job couple days ago..Big thanks to Johnny (Classicvibe), I picked up his extra set of lines. They went in easy, all secure with zip-ties.

I also cleaned out the reservoir and changed the filter in the cannister.

There was some metal chips collected on the old filter, is this power steering pump wear?

Feels sooo good to have no more leaky power steering lines and no more cleaning up mess
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89 wolfsberg weekender
89 Westfalia
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