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webwalker
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Joined: January 26, 2006
Posts: 2803
Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
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 Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: Flywheel based Ignition trigger |
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No, I don't want to file a tooth off. 
Here's the concept:
The 36-1 EDIS trigger wheel is great. But putting it out front can be ugly and possibly unnecessary.
So I got to thinking about the VW Diagnostics TDC sensor and the bit embedded in the engine side face of the flywheel that triggers it.
What if (and this is a BIG if) I were to get a stock flywheel, have a machinist who can measure drill 34 additional eequadistant holes to have the tapping installed, and then leave one 10-degree 'bare'.
A perfect 36-1 with a HALL sensor picking up the pulses.
Comments?
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Dale M.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds good but.... Its contrary to popular belief.....
One thing you will need to do is have flywheel balanced after any modifications are done......
Think inductive pickup would be proper not Hall effect, think hall effect take magnets to trigger.....
Dale
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webwalker
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Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure which. I don't know ANYTHING about the original diagnostic trigger (Hall/inductive/optical/carrier pigeon) for the engine; the one of mine that I'm working on now doesn't have it. That's why I was hoping someone with more experience with the gadget would weigh in.
Thanks for your comments!
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Dale M.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Something more to read about sensor used for EDIS as it is a VR (variable reluctance) type...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_reluctance_sensor
Dale
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slowtwitch
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Location: just north of philly
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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I made this up for my type 4 build. In the spring, i'm building a type 1 and hope to do somethng similar...
Those dots are pieces of steel rod.
Here it is in the mock up stage..
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Dale M.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I wanted to do something like that for pulley (with magnets), and then use this....
http://lowbugget.com/crank_trigger.html
But "got told" it wouldn't work...... Seems according to "that" person the magnets and Compufire unit are not accurate enough for precision timing or some such thing... Still trying to sort it out in my mind....
Dale
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webwalker
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Joined: January 26, 2006
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Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the nice thing about various systems that interface with MegaSquirt is that as long as you're sending a clean signal, it doesn't matter which of the many systems there are to use.
If I were to directly connect EDIS, then it would be VR or nothin'
But if I used a megasquirt or a megajoltjr, i'd be able to pick my poison.
Not that I think the VR is a problem; as long as what I put in the engine side of the flywheel are magnets, it should be fine with that field pulse. (But make sure all the magnets are facing the VR with the same pole!)
M
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Eaallred
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
I wanted to do something like that for pulley (with magnets), and then use this....
http://lowbugget.com/crank_trigger.html
But "got told" it wouldn't work...... Seems according to "that" person the magnets and Compufire unit are not accurate enough for precision timing or some such thing... Still trying to sort it out in my mind....
Dale |
I might be "that" person. Although I never said anything about it not being accurate enough.
The reason it won't work, is because it is the equivelant of a set of ignition points riding on the crank pulley.
It operates the exact same way as it does in your distributor. There is nothing about it that determines crank position like a toothed wheel and a VR sensor does. It CANNOT work for what we are talking about here for that reason.
The ONLY advantage AJ's system has is that it eliminates distributor scatter, so it does become quite accurate. For firing a single coil and still sparking through the distributor (just like the stock system). The "points" have just moved from inside the distributor, to outside on the crank. So it becomes very stable and accurate. Problem being, now that the "points" are not inside the distributor anymore, there is no longer any ignition curve at all. It runs like a locked out distributor that doesn't have any timing scatter. No more, no less. The ONLY application this system works for is a turbo setup where you end up locking the timing in place anyway. Any other application, it is no good.
It will not work for crank fired ignition with a timing map. At all.
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Dale M.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Eaallred wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
I wanted to do something like that for pulley (with magnets), and then use this....
http://lowbugget.com/crank_trigger.html
But "got told" it wouldn't work...... Seems according to "that" person the magnets and Compufire unit are not accurate enough for precision timing or some such thing... Still trying to sort it out in my mind....
Dale |
The reason it won't work, is because it is the equivelant of a set of ignition points riding on the crank pulley.
It operates the exact same way as it does in your distributor. There is nothing about it that determines crank position like a toothed wheel and a VR sensor does. It CANNOT work for what we are talking about here for that reason.
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Forget the fact that AJ designed it as a points trigger for dist system...
What is it about the "concept" people don't understand...... You drill 35 holes in a aluminum pulley put 35 tiny rare earth magnets in pulley..... You have a effectively a magnetic 36-1 trigger wheel......
What you trigger, inductive or magnet sensor is really not relevant as all things are "constant" if layout and drilling are accurate.....
Everybody wants to get rid of ugly bulky trigger wheel, and magnetic triggering concept is right there in front of everybody and everybody is blind to it......
My idea is a 36-1 trigger without adding "sprocket" to back in pulley and the bracket and points replacement sensor design from AJ is "clean".....
Waiting for the "AHAH" moment from at least one person.....
I think AJ is missing a very good product here!..... All he has to do is add 33 more holes/magnets....
Dale
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webwalker
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Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Dale,
I'll see your AHAH and raise you a 'wait a minute'...
I started this thread based on the idea of a similar rig in the FLYWHEEL ITSELF. Not the pulley. Since, as you say, there is blessed little to go wrong with it, and the drilling (on late engines anyway) for the sensor are already there...why not?
Doing it AJ's way demands that you use HIS pulley. Well, we know what bling has been done to that pulley. Personally, I'd prefer to leave the pulley out of it, hiding the whole shebang out of sight and letting anyone run any darn pulley they want, whether its a power (blech) santana, equalizer, anodized or (wait for it) stock. This would even remove the question of who's Serp belt system you have to have modified. Your pulley, and everything that goes with it, remains 'up to you.'
Let me know what you think.
M
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MURZI
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Like a Volvo 240????
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Dale M.
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Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| webwalker wrote: |
Dale,
I'll see your AHAH and raise you a 'wait a minute'...
I started this thread based on the idea of a similar rig in the FLYWHEEL ITSELF. Not the pulley. Since, as you say, there is blessed little to go wrong with it, and the drilling (on late engines anyway) for the sensor are already there...why not?
Doing it AJ's way demands that you use HIS pulley. Well, we know what bling has been done to that pulley. Personally, I'd prefer to leave the pulley out of it, hiding the whole shebang out of sight and letting anyone run any darn pulley they want, whether its a power (blech) santana, equalizer, anodized or (wait for it) stock. This would even remove the question of who's Serp belt system you have to have modified. Your pulley, and everything that goes with it, remains 'up to you.'
Let me know what you think.
M |
My parting shot is "concept", any pulley, 35 "triggers" (magnets) one non trigger space, one sensor........ What is so hard....
Now I quit......Will not go off topic again on a flywheel concept thread.....
Dale
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“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
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Eaallred
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Don't use magnets, use steel dowel like the above pics showed. Clean, simple, and probably works awesome.
I have seen somebody drill a flywheel as the idea of this thread is for, and it looked great. Never heard how it ran, but i'm sure it worked great.
Dale, I don't mean any disrespect. Drop the whole magnet thing. 36-1 triggering is based on VR pickup. It is not reading magnets passing the sensor, just regular steel teeth.
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Dale M.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Crap...I lied, one more comment.......
Steel PINS !!!!!!!!!! I misses that....I thought they were magnets.....
Dale
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BlueOval
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webwalker
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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FINALLY!
Someone gets what I'm talking about.
I'll be fascinated to see if I can contact the author of that post and see if he's got it running.
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Eaallred
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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I've never heard how it ran, but I bet it ran great at the flywheel end. I'm not a Type4 guy, so I don't know, but I think the six "fluid drain holes" or whatever you would call them run right where the hole in the case is for the pickup. That might work, as they could corrospond with the other machined 'holes'.
I burn up the flywheel on my drag car enough, that I can't dedicate myself to a custom machined flywheel. For my budget, I gotta stick to a cheap triggerwheel attatched to my pulley. 
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slowtwitch
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| Eaallred wrote: |
I've never heard how it ran, but I bet it ran great at the flywheel end. I'm not a Type4 guy, so I don't know, but I think the six "fluid drain holes" or whatever you would call them run right where the hole in the case is for the pickup. That might work, as they could corrospond with the other machined 'holes'.
I burn up the flywheel on my drag car enough, that I can't dedicate myself to a custom machined flywheel. For my budget, I gotta stick to a cheap triggerwheel attatched to my pulley. |
When I was thinking of a way to install my VR pickup, I to, was thinking of using the flywheel. I finally thought that it would be to complicated to set the gap between the VR sensor and flywheel.
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webwalker
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Well, since the flywheel would (of necessity) be truly perpendicular to the axis of the crank, and wouldn't tolerate any axial wobble, I'd think that once you got the VR distance dialed in, there wouldn't ever be a problem of varying proximity.
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slowtwitch
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| webwalker wrote: |
| Well, since the flywheel would (of necessity) be truly perpendicular to the axis of the crank, and wouldn't tolerate any axial wobble, I'd think that once you got the VR distance dialed in, there wouldn't ever be a problem of varying proximity. |
If you find or have a VR that would work, I agree with you. In my case, I'm using junk yard parts and your kinda limited to mounting schemes.
Also, I'm very limited to what my small mill can do. Machining a flywheel is beyond its capabilities 
Now, If i had a bridgeport.................
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