1961 Brake Lights and Turn Signals Don't Work

[MANNAXMAN]

I searched, but I didn't find the answers I need. Let me start by saying the following: The car is 12V and all bulbs are 12V. I checked all of the bulbs while in their sockets and ALL are good. My turn signal switch is a 6-wire switch with push on terminals, but I'm not sure if it's an original 1961 turn signal switch. The back of the arm looks like the one in this ad (third pic), but it doesn't have the holes in the ring (as shown in the bottom of the ring in the first pic). I didn't take a pic of it while I had the steering wheel off, but I remember it had a VW symbol embossed on the ring. So here's my situation:

Brake Light Problem
My friend and I checked for voltage at the lights and there is voltage when the brake pedal is depressed. But when the wires are connected to the bulb holders, the left brake light lights up intermittently, the right brake light doesn't light at all. However, if we bypass the turn signal switch and connect the wire from the brake switch directly to the brake light wires under the hood, the brake lights light consistently when the brake pedal is depressed. WTF?!?
Question 1 - Is my turn signal switch bad?

Turn Signal Problem
I recently purchased this flasher relay from CIP. I have it wired according to the diagram below and it seems to have a good ground. When I activate the left turn signal, the relay clicks consistently, the rear left turn signal flashes sometimes, but the front left turn signal does not flash at all. When I activate the right turn signal, the relay clicks sometimes but neither the front nor the rear signals flash. If I connect the front turn signal wires directly to the fuse for the headlights and turn on the headlights, the turn signals light up. At one point while troubleshooting the rear signal lights, I had the left tail light disassembled and just the wires connected to the bulb holder but the bulb holder wasn't grounded. When I activated the left turn signal, the filament for the parking light flashed.
Question 2 - What would cause the relay to not click consistently when the right turn signal is activated?
Question 3 - Why won't the front turn signals flash if they light when connected to the headlight fuse?
Question 4 - Is the parking light supposed to flash when the turn signal is activated?

[Komissar]

An important thing:
Since you got the car did it always behave like that, or it started recently?


My bet would be bad grounds in the rear...
_________________
1965 Sunroof Beetle
1972 Type 3 Squareback
1978 Skoda 105S

[MANNAXMAN]

When I bought the car at the end of Sept., the brake lights and turn signals didn't work. It had the wrong flasher relay, for one thing. I just recently started to work on the electrical after spending most of my Saturdays working on the brakes and engine. How can it be a bad ground in the rear if the brake lights work consistently when connected directly to the brake switch (bypassing the turn signal switch and relay)? That's what has my friend and me so confused. I would think either the turn signal switch or the relay is bad, or both. But as stated above, when wired through the turn signal switch and relay, we get voltage when the brake pedal is depressed. They just don’t light up. I even tried to connect an extra ground wire on the left tail light to see if it was a ground problem and it still only worked sometimes when connected through the turn signal switch and relay.

By the way, I forgot to mention that it still has the snow flake tail lights.

[glutamodo]

[MANNAXMAN]

[glutamodo]

Where are you checking that you have +12V? If you connect any +12V to the black/violet turn switch wire, with the switch in the middle position you should have +12V at the black/red and black/yellow wires. If you don't, the switch is not working.

[MANNAXMAN]

We checked at the rear. We pulled the terminals off of the bulb holders, one probe to the terminal, the other probe to ground. We indirectly did what you're suggesting. But if there is a bad connection from the brake switch wire to the black/violet wire, I could see that being the reason the brake lights aren't working if the switch is good. I'll try testing the switch directly the next time I'm down at my friend's house.

[glutamodo]

Sometimes the brake light switch will test out OK un-loaded, like it will output 6V or 12V when the wire is unplugged, but once you plug it into the circuit and a current path, it's worn out to the point where the contacts inside can deliver the current and you drop to zero volts.

I think I started to mention this but then I guess I didn't, but you can check the turn signal switch itself with an ohm-meter. You'd be best to unplug the wires coming out of it and leading into the car. Set your meter on the most sensitive ohms setting. Touch the leads together and read what it says, that is your meter's reading for "continuity" - Then with the turn switch in the middle position: The black/red, black/yellow and black/violet wires should all read continuity. Make a left turn, then the black/green/white should have continuity with the black/yellow and black/white wires. (and meanwhile, the black/violet and black/red should still have continuity) Make a right turn and the black/green/white shoud have continuity with the black/green and black/red wires. (and then black/violet and the black/yellow should still be connected)

-Andy

[MANNAXMAN]

[glutamodo]

Black/violet should connect to black/red whenever the switch is in middle position and on left turn. Black/violet should connect to black/yellow whenever the switch is in the middle position and on right turn.

I'd consider the brake light portion of the switch as bad.

black/green/white and black/yellow only get connection on left turn.

black/green/white and black/red only connection on right turn.

[MANNAXMAN]

Is this something that can be easily fixed or am I better off just buying a replacement switch?

[glutamodo]

Depends on what brand of switch it is. You can try and take it apart - sometimes they are a bugger to get back together though. Some switches don't have any way of making the contact tabs stay in place once you take them apart. Others have tabs you can get to which can be secured, or are already bent or peened over so they will not fly out. You might want to look in this thread as to some photos of what some switches look like inside.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157894

[MANNAXMAN]

It was a couple of weeks ago when I took the steering wheel off to look at the switch, so I don't remember for sure. I think it looks like one of the two below. I'm pretty sure SAE was embossed on the outside of the switch. I can't confirm that right now, as my car is at my friend's house.

[MANNAXMAN]

Found these pics in the classifieds. Pretty sure this is what my switch looks like.

[Chip]

Did you ever get this issue sorted? My 60 had some funky issues as well. Signals would both work, but my right brake light would light...explain that one. I found that it was the contacts inside the switch. I took my switch apart and had to fix the surface of the contact pads inside. They had channels worn in them after 50 years of use and these were causing issues. I fixed the channels and everything works! Don't use solder though, this IS what I did, and now i'll need to redo it in the near future. I'll just file them down next time around instead of building up with soft solder. Be careful when you open up the switch, there are a bunch of little tiny springs under the copper contacts and they are gonna want to come apart as the unit is opened. Good luck with getting it all sorts out. It can be a major head scratcher at times, but there really is not that much too it. It's probably just worn contacts.

[MANNAXMAN]

No, I haven't fixed the problem yet. The car has been sitting at my buddy's house for the last few months, so I'm only able to work on it on the weekends. But I'm planning to bring it home this Saturday. I've been trying to find an original '61 turn signal switch to replace it with, but they aren't cheap. I'll probably attempt to take the turn signal switch apart when I get the car home. I'll keep you posted.

[Chip]

I ran into the same issue with the switch, they are expensive! Mine had a broken off handle as well as the poor contacting issues. I ended up buying a 66-67 one, and making a hybrid of the 2. I wanted the dimmer switch that was in the handle for line lock/rev limiter purposes. It just so happened that I managed to get everything to do what I needed. It is worth the effort to try to repair your old switch. It won't take long, its just intimidating. Definitely worth the $100+ that you'll save.
Chip

[glutamodo]

I've done it too - combined two switches to make one good one. Remember though, you can only combine switch parts if they are made by the same company.

-Andy

[Chip]

Interesting, thats good to know. Mine was not a direct swap over, it required a little "machining" to get everything to fit and function like it was supposed to.

[MANNAXMAN]

I decided to re-test my switch as Andy prescribed. I did this on my own, as I now have the car at home.