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Cptn. Calzone
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:02 am    Post subject: Steering box lube Reply with quote

Wolfgang reccomends Power punch EP1 or equilavent, for their boxes. I am looking for this goo and cannot find it locally and need to install the box on Sat. Anyone have a reccomendation? I have a NEW-Rebuilt box and want to feed it properly Thank you
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WestyPop
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ASSuming the rebuilt steering box is a '68-70 unit, IIRC the OG spec was for 90W, but I'd get Wolfgang to name their #2 fave lube, since hopefully, they machined/sealed the box better than when brand new.

Power Punch http://www.powerpunch.biz/Power_Punch_Gear_Oil.html contains MoS2, so possibly a good Lucas manual steering lube, plus some MoS2 additive (pre-mixed before force feeding it to the steering box) would be a good substitute.

Remember to check the steering damper also. Enjoy your new-found sense of control, Captain!
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the steering box lubes "were" a 90 weight bot not a hypoid gearbox oil. They were a 90 weight with a sulphur based additive package and thickener...similar to a browning PTO or gearbox oil.

I don't drive a bus, but the guts are similar in mine. I use Superlube synthetic grease...packed until there is no space or air. It stays the consistency of warm vasolene to 40 below....is EP rated, blows away all the oil based ones, is synthetic, non-toxic...and if your seal craps oil...will not run out of the box. I've put about 100k miles on it and several other people have done this mod mostly uin VW 412's but I have done it on super beetles and type 3 as well. Ray
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kevin77westy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone ever tried "00" (aka double ought) grease in a steering box? Is that what you are talking about Ray?? Its sort of has jelly like consistency but is pourable. It is used in lawn mower transmissions, especially snappers.. I used it in a mower gearbox a couple of years ago and it seems like it would work nicely for this application as well. I know some ford/chevy guys run it in their steering boxes.. Its kinda hard to find in some places but my local NAPA had it in stock.. Just a thought..
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin77westy wrote:
Has anyone ever tried "00" (aka double ought) grease in a steering box? Is that what you are talking about Ray?? Its sort of has jelly like consistency but is pourable. It is used in lawn mower transmissions, especially snappers.. I used it in a mower gearbox a couple of years ago and it seems like it would work nicely for this application as well. I know some ford/chevy guys run it in their steering boxes.. Its kinda hard to find in some places but my local NAPA had it in stock.. Just a thought..


Thats very similar to what I am speaking of. The grease I and several other people have used...in fact its kind of come to be the definitive rebuild "mod" for 411/412 steering boxes...is....this:

http://www.super-lube.com/
Their regular grease works excellently. By regular, I mean ints clear, food grade so it will not react with any seals or gaskets, is EP rated, synthetic with teflon, has a constant consistency from -40 to 450F. That consistency is almost identical to vasoline in the jar. Soft, creamy..very "pumpable". this is the synthetic multi purpose grease they sell. Also their NLG-2 is almsot identical but good from -30 to 475.

The object since this is a grease is to pack the box one of two ways (a) manually. This is slow. On the 411/412 steering box I pack it with the flat lid off....so there are "0" voids...or as "0" as I can get. Then Install the gasket, lid and shaft seal. Then I remove two of the inpsection plugs that this gear box has in the lid. One is tapped for a grease fitting. I pump the box with grease until it comes out the other hole.
Then rotate the worm back and forth to pump grease through every bearing and the rack. With no air voids inside all it does is move through the grease....it cannot pump it out of the way. Since it is not pumping against any air voids.....it also doesnot presurize against the seal. You get perfect full lube of very excellent extreme pressure grease..wiith every movement of the steering wheel.

(b)....and this one is a little tricker, heat the grease in a double boiler until it flows. Pour this into the steering box filling it all the way and let it cool and solidify. Before it solidifies...turn the gear back and forth to pump any air bubbles out of all bearings. Keep a cool damp rag on against the outside of the seal until it cools down so there is no chance of killing the seal.

Again this insures that you will have voidless permanent lubrication of the box.....that flows perfectly in all weather...and has even stronger lubricating properties than the 90 weight gearbox oils. Ray
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe over-kill, maybe not. The wear is on the worm faces and the bushings. The problem with the 90 wt is that when it leaks, it leaks out then the contact goes metal to metal. I've pulled several boxes apart now to rebuild and the wear was minimal on the one that was high mileage but still had oil. The dry one with less mileage was the one with wear, which is the one I am using now until I rebuild another I have. I think that just 90 wt is fine but if yours leaks then Ray's solution would be good until it can be resealed. FYI - we got seals from KAMAN bearing, both the top and bottom seals on the late boxes are common sizes that are still available.
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Bringing back to life, and maintaining a 45 - 50 year old transporter takes a real commitment, and cash. The quality of replacement parts leaves much to be desired, and getting worse.

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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes....good points. Bear in mind that the reason I went to this grease and method on the 411/412 steering boxes....may not be necessary for the bus. The reasons are the same. When these things leak, the oil goes away and damage comes quick.

The seal on our type 4 steering boxes is unique. The closest you can get is one with the same ID. At best you can epoxy it in around the perimeter. Even with that method...I did not feel safe about its ability to keep oil in as epoxy does not stick all that well to elastomers like the rubber seal surround.
Add to that...I CAN get a bug, bus or type 3 steering box either new, used or rebuilt. Type 4 steering boxes have been unobtanium (new) since the early 80's, are rare to be found used and are much more complex than the bus steering box (they are recirculating ball and worm). So...something safer than "leakable" oil had to be done in the face of unsure sealing ability. And...it had to be a lubricant that would insure that it would be virtually impossible to wear out this hard to find part. It works very well.....but as SGkent mentioned...it may be overkill. Ray
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hazetguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the output shaft seal is a metric seal, size 28 - 38 - 7, readily available, and you can even get them with an additional scraper edge to help keep dirt out.
the upper seal is also a metric sized seal, 22 x 32 x 7 / 8 (the 7/8 is the seal height in mm 7 - 8mm, not 7/8 of an inch). i believe the correct term is a "wiper seal" because of the extended sealing lip on top, but perhaps a regular seal could be used in this application? my only concern would be dirt getting in it.

a very quick google search yields several suppliers for both of these seals. i've even found them for sale on eBay.

more pics: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?...t_dir=DESC

upper seal:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


output shaft seal:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by hazetguy on Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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mattcuddy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hazetguy wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
The seal on our type 4 steering boxes is unique. The closest you can get is one with the same ID. At best you can epoxy it in around the perimeter.


as in several previous threads regarding late bay bus steering box seals, i disagree with the above statement.


For late bay, I'd agree with you hazetguy. But Ray may be talking about a 411/412 box, which may or may not be the same. I don't know, maybe you/he does, I'd have to check the fiche.

Eitehr way, shouldn't someone page dansvans for this coversation? Wink
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hazetguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh, i presumed he was talking about type 4 powered busses. i edited my post to reflect this possible contradiction.
why would anyone care about an actual Type 4 in the bay bus forum?Confused


Last edited by hazetguy on Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nica
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My box leaks so I use Laughing STP
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mattcuddy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hazetguy wrote:
oh, i presumed he was talking about type 4 powered busses.
why would anyone care about an actual type 4 in the bay bus forum? Rolling Eyes


I'm not sure why someone would care about one outside the bay forum either. Wink


Actually, I'd willingly roll a type 4 wagon with no regret. I even kind of liek them. Very Happy
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Cptn. Calzone
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:47 pm    Post subject: Steerimg box lube Reply with quote

Had a productive day today.We installed the new Wolfgang steering box and man what a difference in control and tracking Exclamation I used a LubroMolly gear oil with a mollygraphite additive mixed real thick like cold molassas and filled up the new box.After speaking with Wolfgang about power punch They suggested this route as the graphite Molly is the secret ingredient in the Power punch. I took thye Westy out on a twisty road and was smiling ear to ear.
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Tom Powell
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the correct steering box lubricant for a 1968 camper?

I did a search of this topic, it was interesting, but I did not find the exact answer I was looking for.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...mp;start=0

I just purchased a rebuilt built steering box and about to install it. The packaging from the rebuilder recommended Power Punch EP-1. However the Power Punch website describes their product as an additive.

The Idiot's Guide says 90 wt gear lube. Another source says SAE 90 transmission oil. Another source recommended a mixture of STP oil additive and CV joint grease. In the Bentley I could not find a recommended lubricant for '68 through '72. The Bentley recommends hypoid oil for '73 and later. The owner's manual has no recommendation for steering box lubricant.

I am reluctant to use Power Punch EP-1 if it is only an additive.
STP and CV grease sounds hokey.
90 wt gear oil sounds good, but I would consider the source for that recommendation
I'm inclined to use Sta-Lube SAE 85W90 GL-4 which is what I use in my manual transmission

Should I assume that GL-4 doesn't need an additive?
Should I assume that Power Punch EP-1 would improve the GL-4?
Should I assume that Power Punch EP-1 is a good lubricant, not just an additive?

Aloha
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ccpalmer
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read somewhere on The Samba to use Red Line MT-90 GL-4, so that's what I used on my '71
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom Powell wrote:
What is the correct steering box lubricant for a 1968 camper?

I did a search of this topic, it was interesting, but I did not find the exact answer I was looking for.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...mp;start=0

I just purchased a rebuilt built steering box and about to install it. The packaging from the rebuilder recommended Power Punch EP-1. However the Power Punch website describes their product as an additive.

The Idiot's Guide says 90 wt gear lube. Another source says SAE 90 transmission oil. Another source recommended a mixture of STP oil additive and CV joint grease. In the Bentley I could not find a recommended lubricant for '68 through '72. The Bentley recommends hypoid oil for '73 and later. The owner's manual has no recommendation for steering box lubricant.

I am reluctant to use Power Punch EP-1 if it is only an additive.
STP and CV grease sounds hokey.
90 wt gear oil sounds good, but I would consider the source for that recommendation
I'm inclined to use Sta-Lube SAE 85W90 GL-4 which is what I use in my manual transmission

Should I assume that GL-4 doesn't need an additive?
Should I assume that Power Punch EP-1 would improve the GL-4?
Should I assume that Power Punch EP-1 is a good lubricant, not just an additive?

Aloha
tp


STP and CV grease would be hokey....even though the consistency would be correct. The STF is such a low friction "creeping" additive that this will slowly ooz past the seals. STP is way slick.

The other issue that maby really need to look at....is what we (as 412 owners) and BMW, Mercedes, Volvo and a slew of other European car owners have found over the years.....and yes....I have been researching gear box oils off and on for years....and not just looking in a couple of books.

We have found that the vast majority of books use specific terminology. The Germans and others. ...when they mention 90wt gear "grease".....are NOT speaking of 90 weight gear "oil". They are literally speaking of a specialized thickened version of 90wt gear oil.

We have also found this terminology issue....a bit less confused.....in American car and industrial/farm implement gearbox literature.

On the vehicles with recirculating ball type steering gearboxes....the gearboxes themselves last so much longer than the worm and sector type like the bus has.....that it is not uncommon for us to find the original lubricant inside of the bear when we tear it down for seals......and it is NOT....90wt hypoid oil. Its much thicker.....but from smell and operation appears that the base oil was a hypoid oil.

Do what you want....its your bus. But if it were me....I would find a dedicated PTO or slave gearbox oil with hypoid characteristics...so I could keep the oil in the box longer....and prolong the life of something that is getting harder and harder to find good replacements for.

In one of the other threads someone noted a part # and brand of a well used dedicated thickened oil that I have also since found the name of in other forums. I will see what I can find. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ccpalmer wrote:
I read somewhere on The Samba to use Red Line MT-90 GL-4, so that's what I used on my '71


I used Red Line in my new/remaned steering box. Only drove it 100 miles before the crank broke but steering was like butta.

Tcash posted this link when I asked about which oil to use.
Penrite Steering Box Lube
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would just fill it with something like a EP #1 moly grease or a synthetic #1 or #2 moly grease. I agree that the main thing in preventing wear in these boxes is keeping them sufficiently full of lubricant.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
I would just fill it with something like a EP #1 moly grease or a synthetic #1 or #2 moly grease. I agree that the main thing in preventing wear in these boxes is keeping them sufficiently full of lubricant.


Yes...agreed....and the synthetic superlube I originally used for rebuilding them was just like what you suggest. The trick and tedious messy part is getting it filled void, free so no air or at least very little....gets pumped through gears and bearings. In this way there is no way that the grease can get cavitation pockets in it leaving dry spots...

.....and and the Penright that Richparker mentioned is the product I was thinking of. Ray
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom Powell wrote:
What is the correct steering box lubricant for a 1968 camper?

I did a search of this topic, it was interesting, but I did not find the exact answer I was looking for.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...mp;start=0

I just purchased a rebuilt built steering box and about to install it. The packaging from the rebuilder recommended Power Punch EP-1. However the Power Punch website describes their product as an additive.

The Idiot's Guide says 90 wt gear lube. Another source says SAE 90 transmission oil. Another source recommended a mixture of STP oil additive and CV joint grease. In the Bentley I could not find a recommended lubricant for '68 through '72. The Bentley recommends hypoid oil for '73 and later. The owner's manual has no recommendation for steering box lubricant.

I am reluctant to use Power Punch EP-1 if it is only an additive.
STP and CV grease sounds hokey.
90 wt gear oil sounds good, but I would consider the source for that recommendation
I'm inclined to use Sta-Lube SAE 85W90 GL-4 which is what I use in my manual transmission

Should I assume that GL-4 doesn't need an additive?
Should I assume that Power Punch EP-1 would improve the GL-4?
Should I assume that Power Punch EP-1 is a good lubricant, not just an additive?

Aloha
tp


Tom - GL-4 is what Gemmer used in steering boxes and VW recommended. People use grease instead because the seals leak and grease is less prone to leak. Grease is too thick so that is where folks start mixing in oils to make it more fluid so it does not create dry spots. I drove my 1971 bus almost 400,000 miles. It is the same box from 1968 - 1972, and GL4 is what I used in it.

If your box needs repair, VWHeritage has reproduced the steering pegs that wear flat,
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Godspeed to all who undertake a journey in a VW Bus.

*You can do it right the first time, or do it over, the choice is yours. It is a free country. As to brakes, steering, tires, axles etc. - you may only get one chance at doing those right.

Bringing back to life, and maintaining a 45 - 50 year old transporter takes a real commitment, and cash. The quality of replacement parts leaves much to be desired, and getting worse.

1971 (sold)
1977
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