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lewis71bug
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:49 am    Post subject: another oil leak question Reply with quote

It appears that my bug is sucking oil up the breather oil line that runs from the oil bath cleaner down to the oil filler, it that's even possible.

It's done this for a while, I'm finally ready to try to solve this problem.

I have a stock 1600 dual port with oil bath air cleaner. The oil filler has the breather line going to the air cleaner and the draft tube with the rubber boot. The engine has a little over 1000 miles on a complete rebuild. Compression is 120+ on all 4 (don't remember the exact readings, but all where 120-130). The oil bath air cleaner is filled to just below the baffle.

If I clean up the engine to remove all traces of oil and make sure the air cleaner is filled to the correct line, and top of my oil to the top mark on the dip stick, then drive for a few weeks, the oil level in the air cleaner will be above the baffle, my oil level in the engine is low (usually about 1/2 quart in a 3-4 weeks of driving) and the preheat tube is soaked and the air cleaner is dripping oil out the intake and anywhere else it can leak and I have a lot of oil on the right side of the engine and shroud.

More info: I have the shroud connected to the charcoal canister (a new one from cip1) and the canister is connected to the air cleaner properly. I'm currently running 0W20, I had been using 15W40 but the oil pressure was staying above 40psi most of the time. With the 0W40, it idles around 20psi after warming up, but still getting oil from the air cleaner.

What would be causing this and what can I do to fix it?
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lewis71bug
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made sure the baffle under the generator stand is installed like in this picture
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
.

I'll try to get some pictures this evening of where the oil is coming from if that will help.
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lewis71bug
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some pictures. It's hard to see the oil in the pictures, I circled the areas where I find it. The drivers side of the engine and deck lid are clean, it's just on the passenger side:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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djkeev
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well,

First thought that comes to mind is that you've got a worn engine with too much blow by on the rings. This blow by is pressurizing the crankcase and the ONLY play for excess case pressure to escape is out through the air cleaner.
You don't want to know this for it requires at minimum an engine rering job, probably a lot more once you pull it out. $$$$'s

To the oil, Why? Why run a 0 - 20 grade oil in a car designed to run on straight weights? There are volumes of discussion on here about oils and the pro's and con's of using various oils. These oils are designed for the newer tight clearance engines made today. Not for a sloppy old engine like a VW air cooled.

What does become clear is the need for lifter lubrication and using an oil to do this.
Brad Penn Oil get mentioned as still making a proper air cooled engine oil.
This is what I'd recommend to use.

http://www.bradpennracing.com/Products/High-Performance/SAE-30.aspx

Also here is a quick mention of additives
http://www.bradpennracing.com/Zinc.aspx

Search this forum for oil recommendations, prepare to do so serious reading. Don't want to drag it all up here again. Opinions are all over the board and a lot of emotion comes into play!

Dave
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lewis71bug
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
First thought that comes to mind is that you've got a worn engine with too much blow by on the rings. This blow by is pressurizing the crankcase and the ONLY play for excess case pressure to escape is out through the air cleaner.
You don't want to know this for it requires at minimum an engine rering job, probably a lot more once you pull it out. $$$$'s

My engine has been recently rebuilt (~ 1000 miles on it now). New bearings (case was align bored), new lifters, new mahle pistons, new heads, new cam shaft, og crank was ground, og rods where balanced. The compression is 120+ on all four cylinders.

djkeev wrote:
To the oil, Why? Why run a 0 - 20 grade oil in a car designed to run on straight weights? There are volumes of discussion on here about oils and the pro's and con's of using various oils. These oils are designed for the newer tight clearance engines made today. Not for a sloppy old engine like a VW air cooled.


I know about all the opinions on oil and have read most of the posts on the subject. It's been winter here and I switched to 0w20 for the winter (and I'm getting the 10 psi per 1000rpms as needed). I was running rotella 15w30 or 15w40 and oil pressure was too high (idle was 40+ psi). I have always used the red bottle of STP additive with my oil changes (but will be changing to a better additive soon), and I religously change oil every 1000 miles. When I rebuilt the engine, I had it full flowed and use bosch oil filters. I know I could go longer between oil changes now, but I want this engine to last for many, many years.
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johnR
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may be a totally stupid suggestion, but maybe try a longer hose with a loop from the oil filler to the air cleaner -- kind of like a plumbing trap. It should prevent oil from being pulled straight up the tube, if that is where its coming from.

But it does sound like your engine is very "tight", meaning low tolerance/clearances increasing the oil pressure. Also could try a breather box to alleviate some of the pressure?
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lewis71bug
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnR wrote:
This may be a totally stupid suggestion, but maybe try a longer hose with a loop from the oil filler to the air cleaner -- kind of like a plumbing trap. It should prevent oil from being pulled straight up the tube, if that is where its coming from.

But it does sound like your engine is very "tight", meaning low tolerance/clearances increasing the oil pressure. Also could try a breather box to alleviate some of the pressure?


Is there something I can check/test to make sure a breather box is needed/will fix this issue?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's a stock engine, you shouldn't have that amount of blow by to be a problem.

You've got the screen in the generator mount stand properly?

In the older Bentley Manual, 61 - 65 there is a special hints section on Page M-12. They have a modification if you have excessive oil leaks at the oil filler.

It is a shop made device with a vertical pipe to direct oil away from the filler cap.
I've never seen one, not sure if it would even help you.

I don't know if this modification is worth trying on your newer engine or not. I think that the slotted plate replaced this special hint in later engines.

The Bentley also suggests on page M-8 how to check if you are throwing oil out, that is to replace your vent line from the oil filler to the air filter with a clear plastic line.
With a cool engine (room temperature) start the engine and let it run for a few seconds to ensure that the oil pressure is adequate. Then open the throttle and run at 5000 rpm under a load.
After about 10 -15 seconds oil will be visible in he plastic hose if your engine is throwing oil out of the breather.

Their remedies are.....

Make sure oil bath cleaner isn't over filled.

Check the compression. If one cylinder is low you may have a broken ring which will increase the crankcase pressure

Make the oil deflector to which I referred earlier.

If you need, I could scan some pages and send them to you. Like I said, I don't know if this will help you at all with a newer engine.
Maybe others have done or seen this modification and can chime in on whether it works or not.

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the same issue you do lewis71bug. I've lived with it for over 10 years now. It's not blow by. My engine is also a rebuilt engine back in 2000, and it did it even back then.
I use 10W-30 oil. I noticed the issue more when I used synthetic oil. I also did notice less oil get's drawn into the air cleaner when the hot air hose is blocked off.
I think your air flap weight is not sitting right. It should not be pointing down(I'm not 100% sure), should be pointing horizontal(at least that's how it is in my 72). When the air is entering the air cleaner it should push the weights up and close the crank vent. Make sure this is what's happening.

If anyone has a good explanation I'd like to know too.
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lewis71bug
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yehan73 wrote:
I think your air flap weight is not sitting right. It should not be pointing down(I'm not 100% sure), should be pointing horizontal(at least that's how it is in my 72). When the air is entering the air cleaner it should push the weights up and close the crank vent. Make sure this is what's happening.

If anyone has a good explanation I'd like to know too.


I searched for some pictures of the same style oil bath air cleaner, and you are right I believe. The weight should be on the back side of the air cleaner, also. I'll correct that. I doubt that alone is going to solve my issue, but it might help.
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lewis71bug
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
If it's a stock engine, you shouldn't have that amount of blow by to be a problem.

You've got the screen in the generator mount stand properly?

Yes, I have checked.


djkeev wrote:

The Bentley also suggests on page M-8 how to check if you are throwing oil out, that is to replace your vent line from the oil filler to the air filter with a clear plastic line.
With a cool engine (room temperature) start the engine and let it run for a few seconds to ensure that the oil pressure is adequate. Then open the throttle and run at 5000 rpm under a load.
After about 10 -15 seconds oil will be visible in he plastic hose if your engine is throwing oil out of the breather.


I'm going to try this

djkeev wrote:

Their remedies are.....

Make sure oil bath cleaner isn't over filled.

Check the compression. If one cylinder is low you may have a broken ring which will increase the crankcase pressure

Make the oil deflector to which I referred earlier.

If you need, I could scan some pages and send them to you. Like I said, I don't know if this will help you at all with a newer engine.
Maybe others have done or seen this modification and can chime in on whether it works or not.

Dave


I'll recheck the compression and report back what I find.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just killing time, looking at the pile of books on the desk.
You mentioned you were concerned about excess oil pressure of 40 psi.

A 1500 runs approx. 42 psi new / rebuilt and the wear limit is 28 psi.
The 1600 book has no upper limit but also has 28 as a lower wear limit.

This is running straight SAE 30 w oil and at 158 degrees and 2500 rpm.

Interesting, the oil light switch points open at 2.1 - 6.3 psi.

So if you are TRYING to run at 20 psi, you might rethink your logic.
You don't mention what your psi is at a higher rpm though.

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Just killing time, looking at the pile of books on the desk.
You mentioned you were concerned about excess oil pressure of 40 psi.

A 1500 runs approx. 42 psi new / rebuilt and the wear limit is 28 psi.
The 1600 book has no upper limit but also has 28 as a lower wear limit.

This is running straight SAE 30 w oil and at 158 degrees and 2500 rpm.

Interesting, the oil light switch points open at 2.1 - 6.3 psi.

So if you are TRYING to run at 20 psi, you might rethink your logic.
You don't mention what your psi is at a higher rpm though.

Dave


At highway speeds, my oil pressures is 35-40 psi with 0w20. I will rethink this and probably go to a 10w30 or back to the rotella 15w40 with an additive.

I changed the flapper with the weight on air cleaner to the proper position, so it now covers the breather line hole when weighted down and lifts up with air pressure in the breather line.

I put a piece of clear rubber line on the oil filler breather line connection and let the car warm up. I did notice 2 small drops of oil in the line right after start up, but no more during warm up or while reving up to ~3500 rpms.

After warm up, I took the clear line off and put my thumb over the connector for the breather line on the oil filler. There is pressure there but not so much that I can't easily hold my thumb on it. When I took my thumb off, I could see a small puff of smoke/condensation/whatever it is. This happened each time I done that.

I loosened the oil filler cap and there is enough pressure to blow the cap off if I just set it there, and I thought I had read somewhere that there should not be that much pressure, but not sure where I saw that. Edit: Found where I saw it: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=284755&highlight=smoke+oil+filler+cap

I left the clear line on and will check in tomorrow after driving to work (about a ten minute drive at 60mph).

I don't know if any of these clues help or if these are normal.

I do appreciate all the help in troubleshooting this. Thank you all.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was the clear line you used hooked up the air cleaner. Otherwise the in coming air is not pulling air out of your engine. So you might not see what's actually happening

Quote:
I changed the flapper with the weight on air cleaner to the proper position, so it now covers the breather line hole when weighted down and lifts up with air pressure in the breather line.

I think you have it backwards. When you are idling the vent hole inside the air cleaner should be uncovers by the flap. When under load, and you are pulling a lot of air through the air cleaner, then the flap is pushed down and covers the vent hole.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yehan73 wrote:
Was the clear line you used hooked up the air cleaner. Otherwise the in coming air is not pulling air out of your engine. So you might not see what's actually happening

Quote:
I changed the flapper with the weight on air cleaner to the proper position, so it now covers the breather line hole when weighted down and lifts up with air pressure in the breather line.

I think you have it backwards. When you are idling the vent hole inside the air cleaner should be uncovers by the flap. When under load, and you are pulling a lot of air through the air cleaner, then the flap is pushed down and covers the vent hole.


Yes, I did connect the clear line from the oil filler to the air cleaner. After I drove to work this morning, there was some oil on the sides of the clear tube all the way up the air cleaner. So this afternoon I removed the generator stand. Even though I was sure I had installed the deflector plate correctly, it was 90 degrees off. It is now installed correctly, the louvers are pointing down and toward the passenger side just like in the bentley. I'll have to drive it a while to see if that corrects the oil issue. I'm still going to check compression, maybe tomorrow morning after the engine is cooled overnight so I can remove the plugs.

On the air cleaner flapper: Can you or someone post a picture of how your flap is installed (and a picture inside the throat of the air cleaner would be nice)? I'll try to install it to function as you stated.

Is it a problem that there is enough pressure to blow my oil filler cap off if set on the filler loose at idle?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm maybe I should check my deflector too.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yehan73 wrote:
Hmm maybe I should check my deflector too.

You never know. I thought I had it right Embarassed
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry to inject life into an old thread, but figured better this then start a new one-- i have the same issue-- PO installed the oil deflector plate 90 degrees off and i'm spraying. want to buy the parts before I pull the generator off and take apart the oil filler.

is this the only part i need:
http://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/new-l...13101221-b

according to the caption it is-- just seems like i should have a paper gasket on this too...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fss106 wrote:
sorry to inject life into an old thread, but figured better this then start a new one-- i have the same issue-- PO installed the oil deflector plate 90 degrees off and i'm spraying. want to buy the parts before I pull the generator off and take apart the oil filler.

is this the only part i need:
http://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/new-l...13101221-b

according to the caption it is-- just seems like i should have a paper gasket on this too...


Mine had a thin paper gasket on top and bottom, I also used a thin layer of permatex avionics sealer on it for good measure.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did turning the deflector to the correct orientation fix the problem of excessive oil to the air filter?
Bob
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