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Engine dimensions etc for conversion comparisons into Syncro
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SyncroGhia
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:38 am    Post subject: Engine dimensions etc for conversion comparisons into Syncro Reply with quote

I'm looking at all of the engine conversion options for a future Syncro project.

It's not going to have a stock wasserboxer or TD engine as they don't have enough oomph and I don't want to spend the rest of my life wondering when they're going to blow up!

The important things for this syncro project are:

a) Weight. It can't weigh too much as it's going to be in a Single Cab Syncro and it's all going to be about being light and agile. I'll be trialing it lots. Does anyone have weights of engines on file?

b) Short! The engine has to be short in overall length as I'm going to be shortening the back of the van for better departure angles.

c) Ground clearance. I want as much ground clearance as possible so no sumps hanging out the bottom etc.

d) Mpg, I'll be driving it around aswell as offroading it so it can't use silly amounts of fuel. If it's petrol, then I'll be LPGing it.

e) Cost, it can't cost the earth! I want to be able to pick up an engine from a breakers and be able to replace it without having to hunt one down for the next 6 months! I'd say no more than 500 for a unit. Over in UK that will usually get you an Audi V6 2.8 12V (maybe a 30V), Subaru 2.5 N/A, Audi/VW AFN TDi, etc

f) It has to be a flexible engine. I'll be running 6.17s and although I'll be fitting higher 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears, it's not really going to be setup for a short powerband engine.

g) Easily waterproofed! I'm going to be driving in all sorts of stuff inc deep water so there's no point in having something which hickups at the first sign of the wet stuff!

h) Power. It's got to have atleast 140bhp and/or 180ftlbs. I know how expensive these conversions are and to make it worth doing, it's got to go properly.

I have the option of a Subaru Legacy Twin Turbo engine as it's sitting in the garage but it doesn't really feel like the right engine for this as there's lots sticking out the bottom, not just the sump but the exhaust manifold sits about as low...

I have just helped a friend pick up an Audi V6 2.8 12V but it looks to be a fairly heavy engine... that said I do have a South African bellhousing at my disposal so Audi 5 cyl (very heavy, long and not fuel efficient!) Audi V6 and V8 (already had one of these and ended up selling it as I think 300ftlbs is just too much for the stock gearbox aswell as drinking fuel) are possibilities.

I have most of a Syncro Diesel kit around so I could use this for TDi, TD, 2.0 8V, 1.8T 20V AEB etc etc

I have a couple of chargecoolers (watercooler intercooler) kicking around so I guess it could be turbo'd but as I've discovered with Limey, that means expense with getting the system to be reliable.

As you can see, I've been playing around with ideas and there are so many possibilties that I'm loosing track of what's a good idea and what's not....

HELP!! Very Happy

Cheers

MG
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SyncroGhia
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I forgot about engine weights...

I weighed a stock 1.9DG Syncro petrol engine complete with exhaust, cooling system etc juts as I dropped it out of my Single Cab Syncro and it weighed 130KG/287lbs.

MG
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1.8T has been getting really great review around for going into the vanagon pepy and not to big and with the desil parts that came with your deal on the red 16 inch single cab might be fun. id be interested in how well the 2.0T would be if the 200cc difference is notable or not.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I drove Dredwards 1.8 and it was one of the best conversons I have driven it pulled great the other great on was a 1.9 tdi.When set up will have as much power as are 2.5 tdi.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am partial to the ALH 1.9 TDI. If you expect to submerge the engine, a diesel is the only way to go. Problem is the modern TDI is "electronic" and would be hard to waterproof. The other option I have heard of would be to use the modern TDI, but to have an injection pump converted to be mechanical. If you are worried about ground clearance, You could dry sump the engine and do away with the oil pan. Intake and exhaust could be routed up into the rear pillars to keep them dry. I can't tell you the specific weight. If you search my user name in the gallery, you should find some photos of my 2WD conversion. Stock my ALH is making 100 hp at 3800 rpm and about 150 pounds of torque at 2200 rpm. This is measured at the rear wheels. I understand bigger nozzles and reprograming the ECU can yield more hp and torque, but I am reluctant to put more load on the stock diesel clutch and the input shaft. If you really want to get carried away, do a mid engine setup. A lot of work, but you could adapt an entire audi engine and drive train. Regards.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could be the second person to swap a 1.8T in your Single Cab Syncro @ 15 degrees like I did with mine.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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SyncroGhia
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok thanks guys, good info.

If I went 1.8T 20V, it would be an AEB and using stock Syncro Diesel mounting parts. It's still a possibility. There are about 4 AEB engines on ebay at present for under 500, some of them include loom and ECU so it's a maybe. I have a feeling that I'd be into modifying the engine block for the right hand engine mount, scratching my head with the sump and oil pickup pipe although I've not tried these yet and possibly be into turbo to left hand engine mount clearance issues...

I am currently driving an A4 TDi AFN around daily which has done 282K miles Shocked and still going well. I know friends have had good results from tuning this engine and I would expect I could get it up to similar hp as my 2.5TDi but the gearing with 6.17s just won't work, even with a .70 and 35 inch tyres! 70mph would be at 3,000rpm where as on the A4, 3,000rpm = 92mph!

MG
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a shot of my gear calculator showing 6.17s vs 4.57s both running V 2nd (1.8Cool, Albins 3rd 1.14 and Albins 4th 0.70.

Limey's running 245/75/16s and the 6.17s are on 35 inch tyres as this is probably what I'd go for.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thinking aloud, it would be really nice if there as an engine which had this much power from the outset rather than having to tune something to get 'to' that level.

With the best will in the world, tuners are never going to get the best mix of economy, reliability and power when the manufacturers have spent thousands testing everything...

More thinking to be done!

MG
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may be "wishing" for too much. The further you stray from a VW block, the more fabrication/fitting you will need to do. On our race cars we utilze "dry sump" oiling systems. If I was doing some heavy duty off road in any vehicle, I would be running a dry sump. There are many benefits to this type of system. Second, I was told you could not run an ALH TDI at 5O degrees. While you can not use the original block brackets, there are easy ways to utilize the other mounting bosses on the block to make custom engine supports for both the left and right sides of the engine. I have since replaced the diesel rubber mounts for Saab hydraulic mounts and have added a torque mount to the timing belt side of the engine. Here is a picture showing my left side mount before adding the torque mount.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VWhead wrote:
You could be the second person to swap a 1.8T in your Single Cab Syncro @ 15 degrees like I did with mine.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I love how the 1.8t fits the Doka. Sooo much room Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alaric.H wrote:
I drove Dredwards 1.8 and it was one of the best conversons I have driven it pulled great the other great on was a 1.9 tdi.When set up will have as much power as are 2.5 tdi.

I was very impressed with your diesel my friend. That thing pulled like a beast, and the sound was to die for. If i had the coin that would be the only other swap i'd consider...... Cool I was very honered to drive such a well done and affective swap.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might reconsider the diesel route, when properly tuned they put out huge power. Otherwise, have you considered a Porsche 911 or Boxter engine? Low profile, dry sump, and proven power, but quite expensive. Most conversions I've seen are the aircooled variety. Subaru SVX 3.3 is another popular choice, but again you run into sump issues... however there are off-the-shelf low profile sump pans and headers available for the Subaru 4 and 6 cyl engines, as well as Subie-VW bellhousings from RJ Engineering in the UK. http://www.rjes.com/ Your 2.0TT is going to be a problem plumbing the exhaust if you use it, maybe convert to a single turbo, a small unit like the VF-11 that spools fast for low-end grunt. For N/A Subaru I'd recommend the 2.5L
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mccavittj wrote:
You might reconsider the diesel route, when properly tuned they put out huge power. Otherwise, have you considered a Porsche 911 or Boxter engine? Low profile, dry sump, and proven power, but quite expensive. Most conversions I've seen are the aircooled variety. Subaru SVX 3.3 is another popular choice, but again you run into sump issues... however there are off-the-shelf low profile sump pans and headers available for the Subaru 4 and 6 cyl engines, as well as Subie-VW bellhousings from RJ Engineering in the UK. http://www.rjes.com/ Your 2.0TT is going to be a problem plumbing the exhaust if you use it, maybe convert to a single turbo, a small unit like the VF-11 that spools fast for low-end grunt. For N/A Subaru I'd recommend the 2.5L

I considered the 911 boxer. Prob was/is the price. Every 911 engine was just too pricey for me. Fact is a chipped 1.8t produces roughly if not a bit more power then an older 911. Not to mention parts and repair cost will be drasticly higher. I am very biased toward vw 4 bangers. If tuned they can have a stocker 911 for lunch. It's not uncommon to see 1.8t's with well over 300hp that are very driveable. Honestly i wish my r32 had a 1.8t or even better a 2.0t instead of the 3.2 v6. Porsche is very over rated. Many a tuner in the vw world have made vw's that can kill a 911 porsche( think hgp/hpa turboed r32's that see upwards of 500hp).
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for all yours thoughts... and keep them coming please Very Happy

Every bit of info is important!

Re TDi's at 50o, the engine in my A4 is an AFN which is an external water pump block, so basically the same (or similar) to the JX or AAZ or 1Z. If the sump will bolt on, I'm very tempted by this route. I do wonder what the mpg would be running it at 3,000rpm. Interesting note about the engine mounts and stabiliser bar. Did you change the mounts due to too much vibration?

Re Porsche engines, the 996 and Boxster are wet sump engines and aircooled stuff is too expensive to think about but I hear you re: dry sumping for major offroading and even if I don't go down this route, I'll be building in baffle plates to the sump of whatever engine I'll be running. I have only had a problem once on Limey with oil pressure due to the angle that I was driving at but Limey's not built for that kind of thing.

I need to get my hands on an AEB engine to really check out the differences of sump and engine mounts and where the turbo sits as stock as to whether it interferes with the left hand engine mount. I'd need to run a different manifold from the stock AEB, a manifold from a transversely mounted engine would work better I think.

The Subaru engine idea is still a possibility but the sump clearance is bugging me. I know you can buy shortened pans but the amount of oil left in the engine doesn't fill me (sorry about the pun!) with confidence for the engine lasting very long. Maybe an oilcooler would help not only with temps but keeping the amount of oil supplying the engine being up to the normal level. SVX engines are very long and thirsty as well as being expensive and hard to get so I don't think they're a realistic proposition. The same goes for my Subaru TT motor, it's too complicated and bulky in the wrong areas. It would also mean the removable of the fuel tank to run it!

MG
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit that looking at your requirements there are two engines that spring to mind that fit all the boxes. The first is the Oettinger 2500E and the second is the GoWesty 2400. They are light, relatively economical, meet your ground clearance, rear clearance, and waterproofing requirements, the basic engine is inexpensive (even if the rebuild kits are a little spendy), and have a wide enough power band that you should be ok with 6.17's if the tires are going to be really big. I am biased toward the WBX though, I think that it does pretty well overall.

My other thought would be a dry sumped 2.5 subie with the oil tank up in one of the D-pillars. There have to be racer types that dry sump that block and you can take their setup and fit it to the Vanagon. Or use the 2.0 subie and a turbo (common in the UK on the WRX we got a stupid 2.5 version), or a 2.5 and a turbo (Legacy?) but build them to be torque fiends like the VW turbos not power fiends like the Roo guys run them. I don't know how waterproof these engines are though and I don't like how vulnerable the cam BELTS (!) are on them. I think that this is a bad fit for you based on what your comments are (I think we have pretty similar thoughts on the subie engines in Syncros).

Sounds like a 4 cylinder diesel might be the best bet for you though. How difficult would it be to dry sump a TDI? My initial thought is that it would be a lot of $$ but might work, you might be fine with the stock oil pan too. The fact that you have some of the parts on hand helps. The engine would be really good with an adjustable chip setup so you make as much power as you want and can stretch your economy. They can be water proofed. If you ran then exhaust around the front of the engine like the SA 2.5 gassers then you would pick up some rear approach, I think Limey has a setup like this right? So you have a lot of the work done for that kind of setup it's just a different manifold. You know the ins and outs of intercooling a Vanagon so that's taken care of too. You could look into a LPG injection system to boost the economy on the highway drags, lots of room in the SinKa for a tank in the treasure chests, I know that there are kits for LP systems on the TDI's.

Can't wait to see how you progress with the project!

Paul
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Paul,

From the time spent on Limey and having fitted the same engine (2.5TDi) to a previous vehicle, I know how important it is to have everything worked out on paper first, otherwise it'll just turn into a revolutionary project which never hits the road!!

I'd love to run a waterboxer engine but this will be built on a budget and that means 2nd hand engines and stuff that I have hanging around. I wouldn't have enough for a GoWesty motor/Oettinger 4 Cyl, especially as we're heading into the realms of modified engines so replacement parts will be in another country and expensive. It's also still based on an aged design which isn't that efficient and even with lpg, I'd still struggle to get sensible mpg.

The idea of a dry sumped scoobie is worth while looking into though and I'll give this some thought. I think it would have to be a 2.5 N/A or a 2.0 Turbo (single turbo) engine without mods.

The 1.9TDi is looking good at the moment and is up there in the top 5, along with a 1.8 20V Turbo and an Audi 2.8 V6 30V, Scoobie 2.5 and 2.0 Turbo.

I'm having problems trying to find out info on the Audi 2.8 30V engines as not many folk mess with them. I'd love to know how they weigh.

Oh, the project isn't starting with the Syncro Single cab which I had for sale recently. That's now sold to a mate who is putting a 2.2 Scoobie in it.
I'll be starting with a very rusty Doka Syncro and then removing parts of the bodyshell until I'm happy Laughing

MG
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SyncroGhia wrote:

I'll be starting with a very rusty Doka Syncro and then removing parts of the bodyshell until I'm happy Laughing

MG


Oh so it's already been on a diet to add lightness though a reduction in panel thickness. Sweet! Wink

I know what you mean about working in a budget. What are your target numbers for economy if I might ask? I mean I get in the low 20's (US gallons) in my Syncro 7-pass with the WBX, are you shooting for the low 30's (imperial?)? I like the idea and it will be interesting to see what you come up with, I know Limey gets pretty impressive economy for what you are running, a lighter DoKa with new gears could post some impressive numbers.

Which Audi 30 valve are you talking about? I know that Audi has some nice V6 TDI's over there that we never got. One of the 2.5L from the mid '90s could be a good candidate, power is maybe a little lower then you were looking for just searching Wiki and you are running the risk of the perpetual project again. I'd be interested to see how it came together though, could be a really sexy swap. I'm tempted to say that one of the inline engines is an easier bet though, lots of people have done it so if you want an in and out project it's well documented.

Any reason not to copy what you did with Limey? That 2.5 inline 5 seems like a sweet setup from across an ocean, what you are running there might be my dream setup (less power though).

Paul
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehehe, yes it'll be on a diet! The cab will be coming off along with a lot of the other bodywork! followed by some well placed strengthening/diagonal bracing to keep it strong.

Mpg? from a petrol, I'd like 25mpg and from a TDi 35mpg. That's imperial (4.546 litres in a Gallon) gallons.

The Audi 2.8 30V (ACK code) is fitted to Audi A4's, A6's and A8's from around 1997 onwards and has 193bhp and 206ftlbs so a fairly nice engine. Also the sump is very wide and doesn't sit too low.

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The 2.5 V6 TDi's have long term design probs with camshafts wearing out and they're still about 1000 mark for an engine so not really cheap enough, plus they're not as frugal as the inline TDi's.

The 5 Cylinder TDi is very heavy and very long. It produces good power with not bad economy but there is about 8mm between the crank pulley and the rear cross member! I want to move the back of the van further forwards to within that clearance of a shorter engine like a Subaru. I'd even consider just making the rear cross member a single skin at that point to help out.

That's a point actually, could anyone measure from the face of the crank pulley to the inside of the rear cross member on a Subaru install please?

MG
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's a point actually, could anyone measure from the face of the crank pulley to the inside of the rear cross member on a Subaru install please?

About 165mm with a EJ22 in a syncro doka. The exhaust will have to be ran somewhere else if you plan on shortening it that much, but you already know that.
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