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Broken Alternator Studs... :-( direct me to info
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wyomingresident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Broken Alternator Studs... :-( direct me to info Reply with quote

The last few times I started my 84 Westy, I heard a creaking associated with the drive belt. I didn't think much of it as it seemed to go away pretty quick.

Anyhow, this afternoon I wanted to look into the issue. Further inspection brought me to the bottom bracket of the alternator.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Photo: Robert Bentley, Inc.

The red stud was gone when I got there and the green stud was loose. Even the Aternator support bracket was loose.

Can I drive with just the support bracket? Easy fixes???

I was due to leave for a Southwest Ski Business trip (Jackson Hole-Phoenix-Albuquerque-Jackson Hole) in 10 days.

Rent a car or try to fix it?

Thanks
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pop in two new studs and new hardware and you are good to go.

I dont recommend running for long without the additional support.
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wyomingresident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
pop in two new studs and new hardware and you are good to go.


Well, that means I have to get out the old studs- and that's a fair amount of work. I'm not sure I can tackle that right now. I searched pretty well before I posted and am vaguely familiar with the GoWesty Alternator Bracket.

Does this bracket eliminate the need for the cantilever bracket or augment it?

insyncro wrote:
I dont recommend running for long without the additional support.


So, I guess taking it to Albuquerque would fall outside of the parameters of the statement above???
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a stud remover and a little heat will have you ready to install new studs in minutes.
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wyomingresident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK then, it looks like I have to remove a bunch of stuff to get to it? Coolant pipes?
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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remove the belt, alternator & stock mount. It's all right there.

Just did this 2 weeks ago:
GW kit works WITH the stock mount, but bolts UNDER the PS pump bracket.
If no PS, you've got it made...

No trip. Fix first.
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wyomingresident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you guys haven't firgured this out already, I'm looking to be hand held through this.

I scurried out to get some pics. They're worth a thousand words you know...

Looking from the passenger side towards the driver. The studs are back in the red circle:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It sure looks to me like I'm gonna start removing pipes so that I can get an easy out in there. How on earth does one get a drill in there? All tips and tricks (even dirty ones) are welcome.

Here is another:

This is looking from driver to passenger side...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops. '84 different? My bad.
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wyomingresident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
a stud remover and a little heat will have you ready to install new studs in minutes.


Care to elaborate?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like the stud that is broken sits flush with the bracket -- which means that once the braket is off you will have a bit of the stud standing proud -- hopefully enough to get a stud puller/extractor to bite on it. If not, lots of other tricky ways have been described here, in particular welding a nut on it.

The GoWesty bracket augments the stock bracket -- if you saw some pics on their website you know things could be worse.
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wyomingresident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is what I'm working with:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I guess I don't see where the Go Westy bracket bolts on?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I see where it looks like it may bolt on, but no holes.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyomingresident wrote:
I see where it looks like it may bolt on, but no holes.


Shouldn't there be a pair of threaded holes where the magenta dots are?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Perhaps some 84s didn't get them?
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wyomingresident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^They are solid. No holes...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the early WBX engines came with one head tapped and one head not tapped for the PS pump bracket (the purple dots on that picture). Look at the left head and see if the holes are there. They may have gotten swapped around during a head gasket job.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is a 1.9 wbx cooling layout
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point, I think I'm going to put it back together and drive to a friend's house.

I'll drain the cooling system and look to get the coolant crossover pipe off, then see what an easy out does.

Off hand? What size easy out should I buy- I've never used one before?

Just asking: Is the one stud strong enough to do the job???
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, one broken stud is not enough. I had one in the shop that was driven with broken or bad stud too long and a chunk of the engine case broke off taking the top half of both the threaded hole with it.
Luckly his van did not have AC, I bolted on an AC compressor bracket and used an alternator from a 16v early Passat, and mounted the alternator on the left side of the engine. It took a bit of custom work but I had it back on the road in a few hours with a higher amp alt to boot. Other shops might have sold him an engine. This van is still on the road today.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you get some vice grips on that stud? If so heat around the stud with a propane torch then grab the stud with the vice grips and try to remove it. Are the any threads left in the other stud hole? it does not look like it from the picture.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:
wyomingresident wrote:
I see where it looks like it may bolt on, but no holes.


Shouldn't there be a pair of threaded holes where the magenta dots are?

[Perhaps some 84s didn't get them?


My '84 is the same as this one. No hole in the head to be able to put on the Go Westy extra support bracket. I found that out after buying the bracket. Sad
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campism
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:
It looks like the stud that is broken sits flush with the bracket -- which means that once the bracket is off you will have a bit of the stud standing proud -- hopefully enough to get a stud puller/extractor to bite on it. If not, lots of other tricky ways have been described here, in particular welding a nut on it.


Good luck with this. I have been dealing with a broken exhaust bolt (just like a stud once it's broken, y'know). There are twisted spline extractors that you tighten onto the remaining stud in a left-turning direction and as you tighten it (theoretically) loosens the stud and backs it out. I learned you need enough stud exposed ("standing proud") for it to bite into or it bottoms out.

Then there is the cam-type extractor which has a knurled rotating part that forces the stud against the other part of the tool and as you tighten the tool against the stud it (theoretically) forces the stud to unscrew. I was working with about 3/8" of exposed stud and the tool walked off the end of it, not being able to get sufficient bite. Heat was applied before during and after (what the hell) several attempts with each of those tools.

On to the welding trick per this link:
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/studremoval.htm

The welding trick sounded great and yesterday I watched a pro try thrice to unscrew a nut he'd welded to the remaining stud. First attempt broke off a little of the stud. Second attempt broke off a little more of the remaining stud. On the third attempt we tried his heat. I'd been using a propane torch and figured it just was not hot enough so after welding the third nut he tried acetylene to heat up the head. Broke off the rest of the remaining stud, leaving a flush break. Did not go further with the washer/nut trick.

Drilling in place attempts required removing as much of everything between the stud and the back of the van as necessary for clearance and all I learned about this was how hard that damn steel is in the stud. Barely registers the drilling attack. I'm now deeper into a WBX than I ever hoped I'd be.

I sincerely wish you good luck with this venture and hope the alternator studs are immune to the evident corrosion endemic to the exhaust studs/bolts.
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