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AircooledHome
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Joined: October 13, 2015
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Location: California
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 Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:21 am Post subject: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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I am trying to figure out if My bearings are trashed, and there is a lot of movement in the rear output shaft with the flywheel, seal and shim pack out. It looks like .06 or of movement. I was reading some people say that you cannot check the movement that way, and the flywheel must be installed. When the flywheel is installed and the nut is snugged up (not torqued) the play is .016 of an inch. Much less, and if I'm not mistaken, only 2x the max play limit.
Any info is appreciated, Sorry for the new topic I am aware of how many end play topics there are already.. Just can't find specific answers. |
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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There is no way to measure end play without the flywheel installed and torqued at least a little, it forms part of the thrust bearing and without it the crankshaft is just floating loose.
Edit: If you suspect a pounded thrust surface/loose bearing add an extra shim so it locks up when torqued, then check for endplay again, if it still moves in and out the bearing is loose.
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12846
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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Hey buddy, Wildthings was right.
| Wildthings wrote: |
| ThisMetalMess wrote: |
| End play seems to be 1/8th inch.. |
You can't check end play with the flywheel removed. |
I don't want to see you waste your time on this. You need to figure out why that flywheel seal is leaking?
The better questions are:
Brand new flywheel seal leaking real bad!
How do I set my end play?
Good luck buddy
Tcash |
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AircooledHome
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Joined: October 13, 2015
Posts: 273
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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| Tcash wrote: |
Hey buddy, Wildthings was right.
| Wildthings wrote: |
| ThisMetalMess wrote: |
| End play seems to be 1/8th inch.. |
You can't check end play with the flywheel removed. |
I don't want to see you waste your time on this. You need to figure out why that flywheel seal is leaking?
The better questions are:
Brand new flywheel seal leaking real bad!
How do I set my end play?
Good luck buddy
Tcash |
Agreed!
I do need it figure out why my flywheel seal be leaking, but I was also nervous my case was trashed! |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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| Quote: |
Agreed!
I do need it figure out why my flywheel seal be leaking, but I was also nervous my case was trashed! |
it can be if it is a type 1 case that is cracked behind #3 or it is a late case losing a oil gallery plug AND it is not caught in time to fix it before bluing the crankshaft when the oil pressure pukes.
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12846
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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Hey buddy can we see some more pictures like this?
First step back and take a picture of the whole back of the engine case.
The case parting line and oil gallery plugs can leak.
Pull the seal and the 3 flywheel shims out and clean the bore and post a picture of that.
Clean the flywheel and post a pic of the surface that the seal rides on and where the oring goes.
On your pic. Two of the crankshaft pins cam out. This is not good. The pins are a press fit in the crankshaft and should not come out with the flywheel.
You can buy oversize pins.
Put the flywheel on the crank. Push with two hand and see if it rocks. If it rocks the surface where the crank and flywheel meet is uneven. Which will require either the flywheel or the crank or both will need to be machined.
See if the pressure relief valve is stuck?
Good luck
Tcash |
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telford dorr
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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There's a small passageway at the very bottom of the flywheel seal area on the case parting line which drains standing oil from the seal pocket. They're not very big, as VW wants the area to hold oil while the engine is running (up to the big drain hole), but they will drain the area when the engine is stopped, so the seal doesn't weep. In the pic above, it is very obviously plugged (likely with case sealer). Use a small stiff wire (like stainless safety wire) to poke through the passageway and see if you can open it up.
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Last edited by telford dorr on Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:06 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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This engine looks like it may have had a history of leaking. You can see where someone smeared sealant along the case parting line.
You can see the drain hole that Telford is talking about to the left side of this picture of a Type 4 engine. Not sure if it is in the bottom of all engines or up the sides a bit.
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telford dorr
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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On mine, its right on the case parting line at the bottom. The passage is in the right case half. Left half is solid.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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AircooledHome
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Joined: October 13, 2015
Posts: 273
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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| telford dorr wrote: |
There's a small passageway at the very bottom of the flywheel seal area on the case parting line which drains standing oil from the seal pocket. They're not very big, as VW wants the area to hold oil while the engine is running (up to the big drain hole), but they will drain the area when the engine is stopped, so the seal doesn't weep. In the pic above, it is very obviously plugged (likely with case sealer). Use a small stiff wire (like stainless safety wire) to poke through the passageway and see if you can open it up.
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Thank you! I will clean that up if possible.
Here is a video if it helps, of what I think may be excessive movement of the bearings?
Link
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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It is normal for the crankshaft to move back and forth in the bearing when the flywheel isn't installed. What isn't normal is for the bearing to move in the crankcase.
Throw in an extra thrust shim as BD suggested, install the flywheel and torque the gland nut slightly. You should actually get no movement this way, but I think you will see that you still get axial movement in the crankshaft as the bearing is moving in the case. |
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AircooledHome
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
It is normal for the crankshaft to move back and forth in the bearing when the flywheel isn't installed. What isn't normal is for the bearing to move in the crankcase.
Throw in an extra thrust shim as BD suggested, install the flywheel and torque the gland nut slightly. You should actually get no movement this way, but I think you will see that you still get axial movement in the crankshaft as the bearing is moving in the case. |
Alright, from what you have seem it seems like I have spun bearing? |
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airschooled
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Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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Find your way to the YouTube "Video Stabilizer" feature and get back to us. It looks like the main bearing is moving, but I can't tell without better video quality. The crank will move back and forth like that in an unassembled engine all day long and it is irrelevant to diagnosis.
Robbie
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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| ThisMetalMess wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
It is normal for the crankshaft to move back and forth in the bearing when the flywheel isn't installed. What isn't normal is for the bearing to move in the crankcase.
Throw in an extra thrust shim as BD suggested, install the flywheel and torque the gland nut slightly. You should actually get no movement this way, but I think you will see that you still get axial movement in the crankshaft as the bearing is moving in the case. |
Alright, from what you have seem it seems like I have spun bearing? |
The bearing probably hasn't spun as it is still held by the pin, it does appear to be moving though. The video is very shaky though so you can likely see what is actually happening better than us. |
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AircooledHome
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Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| ThisMetalMess wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
It is normal for the crankshaft to move back and forth in the bearing when the flywheel isn't installed. What isn't normal is for the bearing to move in the crankcase.
Throw in an extra thrust shim as BD suggested, install the flywheel and torque the gland nut slightly. You should actually get no movement this way, but I think you will see that you still get axial movement in the crankshaft as the bearing is moving in the case. |
Alright, from what you have seem it seems like I have spun bearing? |
The bearing probably hasn't spun as it is still held by the pin, it does appear to be moving though. The video is very shaky though so you can likely see what is actually happening better than us. |
I am honestly not sure what to look for. I realize the output shaft is the piece that is supposed to move, with the alignment pins and such. The bearing would be the small ring around the outside edge of the output shaft? If so it doesn't seem to be moving.
If it isn't moving, or if it doesn't move much, I can simply clean out those drain holes, re-shim my endplay, and continue with my sealing and assembling, correct? |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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| ThisMetalMess wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| ThisMetalMess wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
It is normal for the crankshaft to move back and forth in the bearing when the flywheel isn't installed. What isn't normal is for the bearing to move in the crankcase.
Throw in an extra thrust shim as BD suggested, install the flywheel and torque the gland nut slightly. You should actually get no movement this way, but I think you will see that you still get axial movement in the crankshaft as the bearing is moving in the case. |
Alright, from what you have seem it seems like I have spun bearing? |
The bearing probably hasn't spun as it is still held by the pin, it does appear to be moving though. The video is very shaky though so you can likely see what is actually happening better than us. |
I am honestly not sure what to look for. I realize the output shaft is the piece that is supposed to move, with the alignment pins and such. The bearing would be the small ring around the outside edge of the output shaft? If so it doesn't seem to be moving.
If it isn't moving, or if it doesn't move much, I can simply clean out those drain holes, re-shim my endplay, and continue with my sealing and assembling, correct? |
You need to do what has already been suggested and add an extra shim and then reinstall the flywheel and lightly torque the gland nut. This will should take all the end play out of the bearing, but if not will tell you how loose the bearing is in the case. You can run the engine with a moderately loose bearing, but the engine life from this point on will not be super long. |
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AircooledHome
Samba Member
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Posts: 273
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| ThisMetalMess wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| ThisMetalMess wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
It is normal for the crankshaft to move back and forth in the bearing when the flywheel isn't installed. What isn't normal is for the bearing to move in the crankcase.
Throw in an extra thrust shim as BD suggested, install the flywheel and torque the gland nut slightly. You should actually get no movement this way, but I think you will see that you still get axial movement in the crankshaft as the bearing is moving in the case. |
Alright, from what you have seem it seems like I have spun bearing? |
The bearing probably hasn't spun as it is still held by the pin, it does appear to be moving though. The video is very shaky though so you can likely see what is actually happening better than us. |
I am honestly not sure what to look for. I realize the output shaft is the piece that is supposed to move, with the alignment pins and such. The bearing would be the small ring around the outside edge of the output shaft? If so it doesn't seem to be moving.
If it isn't moving, or if it doesn't move much, I can simply clean out those drain holes, re-shim my endplay, and continue with my sealing and assembling, correct? |
You need to do what has already been suggested and add an extra shim and then reinstall the flywheel and lightly torque the gland nut. This will should take all the end play out of the bearing, but if not will tell you how loose the bearing is in the case. You can run the engine with a moderately loose bearing, but the engine life from this point on will not be super long. |
Yes I will, but it is Sunday and the vdub shops aren't open until tomorrow for me to grab some shims.
I figured out where the bearing rides, and tried to check it. It seems to have no movement in and out, but it does have movement side to side. |
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Tcash
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Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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The bearing is not moving round and round (spun bearing)
But it does appear to be moving in and out (worn thrust)
This is what you are looking for.
Bearing slop
https://youtu.be/xAAV6Z0a_TA?t=44
Link
HFD
Tcash |
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AircooledHome
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Posts: 273
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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| Tcash wrote: |
The bearing is not moving round and round (spun bearing)
But it does appear to be moving in and out (worn thrust)
This is what you are looking for.
Bearing slop
https://youtu.be/xAAV6Z0a_TA?t=44
Link
HFD
Tcash |
I'm bringing my engine in tomorrow in the AM to be looked at.
Again, the thrust bearing only rotates (round and round) like 5-8 degrees back and forth. It does not move in and out (through the case) at all. |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Can you Measure End-Play with Flywheel Off? |
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the bearing has precrush built into it. If it can move in the saddle with the case halves bolted together it needs an align bore and maybe thrust cut. If the case is bolted together properly and you can wiggle that bearing back and forth whether round and round or front to back, when you get it apart you will find shiny spots under it where it has been working. That is no good. My best guess is that whomever built it either went cheap, used or didn't know what they were doing - or the engine has a huge number of miles on it.
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