| Author |
Message |
Stuartzickefoose
Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008
Posts: 10350
Location: SoCal for now...
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:09 am Post subject: |
 |
|
just remind me at the next meeting and ill show yall.
_________________
Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected]
Last edited by Stuartzickefoose on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Daverham
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2009
Posts: 1397
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
Don't worry, Bill.... after a little time passes we humans tend to forget the pain and remember the good parts. I bet you feel the same way in a few weeks. And there were LOTS of good parts. Don't rule out the car raffle for next year entirely. It does generate a lot of excitement. Maybe club members aren't eligible to buy or hold tickets. Or maybe something else. Tweak a few details and we'll be good.
I know what it's like to take this kind of discouragement personally, but don't forget how awesome this show was. What you and the club have pulled together - yet again - is nothing short of amazing and fantastic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stuartzickefoose
Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008
Posts: 10350
Location: SoCal for now...
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Daverham wrote: |
Don't worry, Bill.... after a little time passes we humans tend to forget the pain and remember the good parts. I bet you feel the same way in a few weeks. And there were LOTS of good parts. Don't rule out the car raffle for next year entirely. It does generate a lot of excitement. Maybe club members aren't eligible to buy or hold tickets. Or maybe something else. Tweak a few details and we'll be good.
I know what it's like to take this kind of discouragement personally, but don't forget how awesome this show was. What you and the club have pulled together - yet again - is nothing short of amazing and fantastic. |
someone give this guy an award for staying positive....i applaud thee! 
_________________
Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Franklinstower
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 1896
Location: PNW
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ok, here is my last comments on this subject:
Please don't cancel the raffle - just make it a little more transparent so a situation like this doesn't happen again. I would suggest some ideas like this:
1. Those selling tickets can't participate in raffle
2. Those behind the counter/in the booth can't hold tickets for others
3. Those behind the counter/in the booth can't participate in the raffle
4. Don't pay the volunteers with tickets
5. Cut down the time after a number is called. Put the number on a timer - like 1 minute from when the number is called. You don't need to keep calling the number 5 and ten minutes later.
Enforcing the "must be present to win" is tough, because obviously many people buy tickets just as a donation to the club, and give the tickets to others - just don't give them to someone involved in the raffle!
And finally - I apologize for offending those that feel offended.
Curt, I though you were the winner based on what Zach stated in his original response. I read it wrong, I guess Terry(?) won it?
That is real funny some of you want to 'Blame' me for taking down the raffle single handed. Hell, I am a bald headed step child, - I'll take it!
The keyboard Crusader as I have been so affectionately called.
_________________
'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
T Crane
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2004
Posts: 34
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It was my first time at this show. It was great. Don't drop the raffle car just because one or two or ten people are upset they didn't win. If anything, the raffle result this year was a nice reminder that sometimes when you do a good thing, good things happen to you. I think it's called karma. Perhaps, those complaining should reassess theirs.
_________________
Most of us come to the internet to GAIN information. . . . But it turned out that 'expertise' was based on the number of posts a person made rather than their knowledge.
-Bob Hoover |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clara 
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003
Posts: 12401
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Franklinstower wrote: |
Ok, here is my last comments on this subject:
Please don't cancel the raffle - just make it a little more transparent so a situation like this doesn't happen again. I would suggest some ideas like this:
1. Those selling tickets can't participate in raffle
2. Those behind the counter/in the booth can't hold tickets for others
3. Those behind the counter/in the booth can't participate in the raffle
4. Don't pay the volunteers with tickets
5. Cut down the time after a number is called. Put the number on a timer - like 1 minute from when the number is called. You don't need to keep calling the number 5 and ten minutes later.
|
Ridiculous! Anyone including club members / volunteers should be able to buy tickets and win prizes. Every VW club raffle does it that way.
I think it is great to give some time for someone to get there to claim a prize if they won. Some people were packing up stuff in the swap. Not everyone is right by the raffle tickets.
There are no dues to pay to be a member of the Cascade Kombis. Last time I went to a meeting, the club bought the pizza.
I held tickets for someone at a raffle at a show once and won a pair of bus seat stand mats for him. People hold tickets for other people all the time.
I bought a raffle ticket at a Vintage Meet about 15 years ago and won a neat blue vintage VW sign. It looks great in my garage. My friend who bought $20 of tickets right after me was jealous!
I think the entry fee in the swap should be reduced if you drive an ACVW in.
Take a page from OCTO... they charge $5 in a vintage VW, $50 otherwise.
Or make it the same as showing your VW, which cost $15 at the VM.
Honestly, many people don't really make money at the swap, especically with the interwebby, just like to hang in the swap area. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
a914622
Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2004
Posts: 840
Location: Westend of HWY2 , Wash
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I would have to agree that raffle could have gone better. Calling the winning ticket 5 and 10 min after drawn is a stretch of the " must be present to win " rule. I have ran a few raffles and In the sound of my voice IS present to win! A big ticket item is going to be looked at more closely. On one of my raffles, I had a guy call his buddy because his ticket was the winner, but he had left 5 min earlier, The winner turned around and raced back only to see the prize handed to some one that was present. He was not a good sport about it.
So ya great show, good group of guys, sweet rides, Room for improvements. I buy tickets every year to make sure there are allways VW shows to go to. The last thing i won was a coffee mug from octofest 18 years ago.
Oh and by the way, As far as Washington State sees you, volunteers are covered under L and I so payed or not if you helped ,you are affiliated.
Jcl
_________________
87 gl powerd buy 2.5subaru
75 914 getting 2.2t subaru scratch that SVX subaru |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greenacarina
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 16
Location: Everett, WA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
I feel a strong need to chime in about the drama surrounding the Vintage Meet raffle.
I have been following this since the day of the show (although, sadly I wasn't able to attend this year).
First, here is a club...a group of people who are as laid back and drama-free as anyone you will ever meet. The main purpose of the club is to do this show...in the same style (laid back, drama-free, etc...)
They try hard to make this show a quality event (big swap area, lots of cars, good food, cool raffle, etc...)
I know we live in the age of reality TV and fabricated drama, lots of hot-button issues in the news to get our panties in a twist over, etc...
People really seem to eat this stuff up like a bad crack habit.
Shouldn't there be at least one place in life where you can let all of that crap go?
Let's look at the raffle for a sec. Here's a guy that did some work on the car...he chose to get paid in tickets rather than cash. The tickets have a specific value ($1 each). Someone mentioned that the tickets
don't cost the club anything and why don't they give them out to all the volunteers, etc...
Bullshit! The tickets have a value of $1 each....period. No difference if the guy had been paid cash and used that money to
buy the tickets.
Nowhere in the rules does it specify your odds of winning. When you buy that ticket, you don't know how many other people have bought tickets.
There are no limits on how many tickets one person can buy. If you don't like your odds when you buy one ticket, you can buy more. Someone else may have bought 100....
is that any reason to claim unfairness? Certainly not!
Every gripe about the raffle that I have read so far has no logical basis and just comes across as people grasping at straws and "sour grapes" over not winning the car.
Having known the people who run this club and this show personally...to see any accusations of wrongdoing is simply ludicrous.
The facts are these-
The tickets have a specific monetary value and guy who did the work on the car was paid exactly the same in tickets as he would have in cash.
The winning ticket was drawn at random, fair and square. The winning ticket was present at the time of the drawing and the ticket holder was present to claim the prize for
the purchaser.
Everyone who bought a ticket had a legitimate chance to win.
Anyone who wants to argue any of this is only fooling themselves. Honestly, if that's the kind of person you are...maybe you should consider staying home from the show
next year and watching re-runs of reality TV on your DVR.
Not everyone is "wired" the same. Some people spend their whole lives thriving on drama and creating issues where none existed before. Others do not.
Nothing wrong with that, but if you are the drama type...I'm sure there are other events where you would feel more at home. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kwiebe
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2005
Posts: 6
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm a little hesitant posting feedback here about the raffle. While it seems like the club is asking for feedback, the few posters here brave enough to criticize the way the raffle was run have been beaten down. Is that fair?
The critics have even been accused of only giving negative feedback because they didn't win the raffle. Is that fair, especially after the club was the party soliciting the feedback in the first place? And, even more ironically, posters who are connected with the club have stated that, because of the negative feedback, in future years they're just going to pick up their toys and go home, and never do a raffle again. Who has the sour grapes here?
Everyone appreciates the effort put into the show, the raffle, etc. Does that disqualify any negative criticism? There's no need to take it personally and characterize the criticism as an accusation of dishonesty.
There is, however, an expectation of transparency. What people who spend money on raffle tickets want is fairness. When people are parting with their money, even a wisp or the *appearance* of unfairness is unacceptable. And even though, as one poster said, "everyone does it this way," that doesn't make it right. Obviously, with a big-ticket prize, more scrutiny will be involved. It's human nature.
All tickets in the drum need to be in the drum for the same reason: Because people not connected with the club or prize paid for a chance to win something. Assuming such a transaction is allowed at all (and it probably shouldn't), the transaction covering the work on the car and the tickets given in exchange for that work should have been separate transactions. Combined into a single transaction, the club is saying "I don't have any cash to pay you" and the worker is saying "I know you don't have any cash to pay me, but since you control the tickets, I'll do the work for 100 chances to win the car." Which is different than saying, "I'll do this job for $100." That's why the universal rules for sweepstakes make certain parties ineligible. Just the way it is.
Suggestions (reiterating what a few others have listed - these are the most important, in my opinion):
Keep club business transactions (such as those connected with the event) separate and transparent (tickets change hands for cash only).
No one connected with the prizes or the event, or their immediate family members, should be eligible to win.
These are really simple, constructive changes which could be instituted moving forward. Adults should be able to recognize that and move on. No need for all the accusations - in either direction.
Last edited by kwiebe on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kwiebe
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2005
Posts: 6
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| greenacarina wrote: |
Someone mentioned that the tickets
don't cost the club anything and why don't they give them out to all the volunteers, etc...
Bullshit! The tickets have a value of $1 each....period. No difference if the guy had been paid cash and used that money to
buy the tickets.
Nowhere in the rules does it specify your odds of winning. When you buy that ticket, you don't know how many other people have bought tickets. |
This is not quite true. I'll agree that ~100 tickets was a small percentage of the total -- in this case. But believe it or not, people actually do have an expectation when they buy a ticket at such an event that they're "competing" with a known pool of other ticket purchasers. They mentally assess their chances by looking at the attendance and making rough estimates about how many tickets will eventually be sold. No one ever said ticket purchasers get to find out "exact odds."
A good test of any theory is whether it holds up when it's scaled up. If, hypothetically, the tickets which wound up being owned by unseen people connected with the event rose to a point where they made a real dent compared to the tickets purchased by outsiders, it's easy to see how this would affect decision making.
I'm just illustrating why it's folly to allow the practice in the first place, rather than just ban it outright. That way, there's no question about "how many tickets in the hands of people connected to the show" is too much. Whether you accept it or not, appearances still matter.
Don't shoot the messenger. You can argue all you want that an individual ticket is worth $1 "period." But I bet the winner of the car would say his ticket was worth considerably more than $1. Likewise, after the drawing the value of the losing tickets is worth what? That's right, $0. That's the whole point. The value of the tickets *changes*. We're not selling widgets on the open market here. Ignore at your own peril.
I think I argued this and did not fool myself.
Last edited by kwiebe on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:04 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bugnut68
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2003
Posts: 4180
Location: Eugene, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Raffle confusion |
|
|
| Franklinstower wrote: |
| Quote: |
Listen Frank, what ever your name is...I busted my ass on that car for 3-days wet sanding, buffing and detailing the you know what out of it just so it would look good for any winner, including you if it were you... plus put in $100 for tickets myself. Would I have done that for a inside job? I am on the inside! Joe has a great idea, come and hang out with us and help us, then you'll know what kind of people your slandering!
If not, keep that '89 Westy covered up and keep ass firmly planted on the bench! |
Maybe I didn't go about my complaint the right way, but I will bet my complaint, plus the other complaints that Zach has received will change the way the raffle is handled in the future. It is just not right that people involved in the raffle are "paid" with tickets. You miss the understanding of Donation: That means you pay, with time, services or money. Not get paid. If you look at this from an outsiders perspective, and the winning ticket is held by someone behind the counter - it just looks fishy.
So Curt or whatever your name is, I am in Edmonds, send me a pmail, I will give you my phone number, and talk to you all you want in person. Make sure you drive your new Puma too! I will be in my white '89 westy with my ass permanently affixed to the driver seat.
BTW, I am not slandering anyone personally, I am just dismayed at the organization that held the raffle.
Oh, one last thing, I go every year, and buy raffle tickets every year, usually about $10-20 in tickets. I do so not to win the car, but as a donation to keep this going. Over the last ten or so years, I have only stuck around 2-3 times for the actual raffle drawing. I applaud everyone that "donates" their time and money to an awesome event! |
Call the whambulance...lol. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Semper_Dad
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2005
Posts: 3511
Location: Indiana
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I respectfully request that any comments made regarding the raffle be moved to it's own thread so that an otherwise OUTSTANDING event be constructively commented on. I would then hope the mods could move any comments regarding the raffle to that thread.
Thanks to all those involve in putting this event on. Nobody knows the countless hours in putting this together except those who actually participated. I truly enjoyed myself as did many others.
_________________
Walküre Restoration Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737492 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greenacarina
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 16
Location: Everett, WA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kwiebe wrote: |
| greenacarina wrote: |
Someone mentioned that the tickets
don't cost the club anything and why don't they give them out to all the volunteers, etc...
Bullshit! The tickets have a value of $1 each....period. No difference if the guy had been paid cash and used that money to
buy the tickets.
Nowhere in the rules does it specify your odds of winning. When you buy that ticket, you don't know how many other people have bought tickets. |
This is not quite true. I'll agree that ~100 tickets was a small percentage of the total -- in this case. But believe it or not, people actually do have an expectation when they buy a ticket at such an event that they're "competing" with a known pool of other ticket purchasers. They mentally assess their chances by looking at the attendance and making rough estimates about how many tickets will eventually be sold. No one ever said ticket purchasers get to find out "exact odds."
A good test of any theory is whether it holds up when it's scaled up. If, hypothetically, the tickets which wound up being owned by unseen people connected with the event rose to a point where they made a real dent compared to the tickets purchased by outsiders, it's easy to see how this would affect decision making.
I'm just illustrating why it's folly to allow the practice in the first place, rather than just ban it outright. That way, there's no question about "how many tickets in the hands of people connected to the show" is too much. Whether you accept it or not, appearances still matter.
Don't shoot the messenger. You can argue all you want that an individual ticket is worth $1 "period." But I bet the winner of the car would say his ticket was worth considerably more than $1. Likewise, after the drawing the value of the losing tickets is worth what? That's right, $0. That's the whole point. The value of the tickets *changes*. We're not selling widgets on the open market here. Ignore at your own peril.
I think I argued this and did not fool myself. |
Your "arguments" are ridiculous. You can get into whatever analytical mental-tail-chasing you like, but don't expect anyone to care beyond the buck they spent per-ticket. We could spend all day doing the math about that each ticket is worth based on how many are sold, what the car is worth, how many other prizes there are, what those are worth, how many people bought tickets but left early and took their tickets with them, etc...
Numbers and statistics can be applied to all these variables and one could "argue" this minutia til our brains are numb. Engineers love these little brain-teasers but most folks consider it a giant waste of time...mental-masturbation.
If you really wanted to know the odds...just ask! The ticket booth certainly would have told you how many tickets they sold. Plus, they are in a clear plastic bin. Did you look at the pile of tickets and guesstimate your odds of winning? If there were 10 times as many tickets (greater odds against) would you have NOT bought any tickets? I suspect you are more interested in playing "devil's advocate" on this whole issue rather than addressing a legitimate grievance.
As far as being "beat down", I'm not sure why you feel that way other than possibly being in the minority in your poinions. You are entitled to your opinions as am I. Just because people don't agree with you does not = "beat down"
I can tell you from experience that internet + devil's advocate usually = troll.
If you have a legit beef, then fine. But of you are just enthralled to pick things apart for the sport of it...stay away from those who don't share your enthusiasm. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kwiebe
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2005
Posts: 6
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| greenacarina wrote: |
| kwiebe wrote: |
| greenacarina wrote: |
Someone mentioned that the tickets
don't cost the club anything and why don't they give them out to all the volunteers, etc...
Bullshit! The tickets have a value of $1 each....period. No difference if the guy had been paid cash and used that money to
buy the tickets.
Nowhere in the rules does it specify your odds of winning. When you buy that ticket, you don't know how many other people have bought tickets. |
This is not quite true. I'll agree that ~100 tickets was a small percentage of the total -- in this case. But believe it or not, people actually do have an expectation when they buy a ticket at such an event that they're "competing" with a known pool of other ticket purchasers. They mentally assess their chances by looking at the attendance and making rough estimates about how many tickets will eventually be sold. No one ever said ticket purchasers get to find out "exact odds."
A good test of any theory is whether it holds up when it's scaled up. If, hypothetically, the tickets which wound up being owned by unseen people connected with the event rose to a point where they made a real dent compared to the tickets purchased by outsiders, it's easy to see how this would affect decision making.
I'm just illustrating why it's folly to allow the practice in the first place, rather than just ban it outright. That way, there's no question about "how many tickets in the hands of people connected to the show" is too much. Whether you accept it or not, appearances still matter.
Don't shoot the messenger. You can argue all you want that an individual ticket is worth $1 "period." But I bet the winner of the car would say his ticket was worth considerably more than $1. Likewise, after the drawing the value of the losing tickets is worth what? That's right, $0. That's the whole point. The value of the tickets *changes*. We're not selling widgets on the open market here. Ignore at your own peril.
I think I argued this and did not fool myself. |
Your "arguments" are ridiculous. You can get into whatever analytical mental-tail-chasing you like, but don't expect anyone to care beyond the buck they spent per-ticket. We could spend all day doing the math about that each ticket is worth based on how many are sold, what the car is worth, how many other prizes there are, what those are worth, how many people bought tickets but left early and took their tickets with them, etc...
Numbers and statistics can be applied to all these variables and one could "argue" this minutia til our brains are numb. Engineers love these little brain-teasers but most folks consider it a giant waste of time...mental-masturbation.
If you really wanted to know the odds...just ask! The ticket booth certainly would have told you how many tickets they sold. Plus, they are in a clear plastic bin. Did you look at the pile of tickets and guesstimate your odds of winning? If there were 10 times as many tickets (greater odds against) would you have NOT bought any tickets? I suspect you are more interested in playing "devil's advocate" on this whole issue rather than addressing a legitimate grievance.
As far as being "beat down", I'm not sure why you feel that way other than possibly being in the minority in your poinions. You are entitled to your opinions as am I. Just because people don't agree with you does not = "beat down"
I can tell you from experience that internet + devil's advocate usually = troll.
If you have a legit beef, then fine. But of you are just enthralled to pick things apart for the sport of it...stay away from those who don't share your enthusiasm. |
Take another look at my posts. Constructive criticism with real-world suggestions for improvement. You are the one attempting to argue economics, while I am pointing out human nature and practicality. I specifically steered AWAY from the type of bits-and-bytes analysis you just accused me of! And you seriously want to argue that those offering criticism here were not beat down? It's right here in this thread!
You have leapt to quite a few assumptions in your latest post. If the club wants to retract its invitation to provide feedback - what you are inexplicably referring to as 'mental masturbation' - then fine. But just because you think you should have the last word does not make it so, your personal attacks notwithstanding.
Also, contrary to one of your assumptions, I did not come here to get a 'grievance addressed'. I came here to provide feedback. You are obviously not open to it, and that's fine too. Just stop the troll accusations, comparisons with 'most folks' and so forth. Can't you accept the fact that someone has negative feedback - even if you don't agree with it? Is that so hard? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joe h.
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2005
Posts: 782
Location: Seattle, Wa
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Raffle confusion |
|
|
| joe h. wrote: |
| Franklinstower wrote: |
| vwzach wrote: |
He refused to take any money, so we gave him the equivalent of $100 in raffle tickets for his labor of love. , so we held his tickets for him at the show. The drawing itself was done fair and square, as always.
--zach |
So someone involved with car, plus those holding the raffle, held the winning ticket?
If the guy donated his time, Then why did you feel necessary to 'donate 100 tickets to him, and worse yet hold them? How else would the outcome be viewed? Controversy is written all over that desicion. 
How about those other 5900 tickets that were actually sold to people not involved with the car or raffle? You are ignorant to think this is something that can be swept under the table. Myself and my friends that spent over $100 on tickets feel conned. That is all there is to it.
Sure it would have been great to win it, but the odds apparently were much higher than they appeared.
A little foresight might have been in order here. I hope Cascade Kombis gets a lot of shit for this. You deserve it! |
Let me assure you this will not be ignored, or "swept under the table". After each show a meeting is held and any problems, complaints, or possible improvements are gone over in detail. This one will be first on the list. Keep in mind, we are all volunteers and donate many hours to make this show successful. I would encourage you to come to a meeting, join the club, help out with the raffle car. I bet you wont feel conned then. We can always use a hand!  |
I guess I need to quote myself.
We listen to all comments and complaints. It's when they become attacks they get taken personally. I think this dead horse has been beat enough.
We will work hard to not only prevent these issues in the future, but make the show even better!
_________________
http://www.cascadekombis.org/vintage-meet |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greenacarina
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 16
Location: Everett, WA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kwiebe wrote: |
| greenacarina wrote: |
| kwiebe wrote: |
| greenacarina wrote: |
Someone mentioned that the tickets
don't cost the club anything and why don't they give them out to all the volunteers, etc...
Bullshit! The tickets have a value of $1 each....period. No difference if the guy had been paid cash and used that money to
buy the tickets.
Nowhere in the rules does it specify your odds of winning. When you buy that ticket, you don't know how many other people have bought tickets. |
This is not quite true. I'll agree that ~100 tickets was a small percentage of the total -- in this case. But believe it or not, people actually do have an expectation when they buy a ticket at such an event that they're "competing" with a known pool of other ticket purchasers. They mentally assess their chances by looking at the attendance and making rough estimates about how many tickets will eventually be sold. No one ever said ticket purchasers get to find out "exact odds."
A good test of any theory is whether it holds up when it's scaled up. If, hypothetically, the tickets which wound up being owned by unseen people connected with the event rose to a point where they made a real dent compared to the tickets purchased by outsiders, it's easy to see how this would affect decision making.
I'm just illustrating why it's folly to allow the practice in the first place, rather than just ban it outright. That way, there's no question about "how many tickets in the hands of people connected to the show" is too much. Whether you accept it or not, appearances still matter.
Don't shoot the messenger. You can argue all you want that an individual ticket is worth $1 "period." But I bet the winner of the car would say his ticket was worth considerably more than $1. Likewise, after the drawing the value of the losing tickets is worth what? That's right, $0. That's the whole point. The value of the tickets *changes*. We're not selling widgets on the open market here. Ignore at your own peril.
I think I argued this and did not fool myself. |
Your "arguments" are ridiculous. You can get into whatever analytical mental-tail-chasing you like, but don't expect anyone to care beyond the buck they spent per-ticket. We could spend all day doing the math about that each ticket is worth based on how many are sold, what the car is worth, how many other prizes there are, what those are worth, how many people bought tickets but left early and took their tickets with them, etc...
Numbers and statistics can be applied to all these variables and one could "argue" this minutia til our brains are numb. Engineers love these little brain-teasers but most folks consider it a giant waste of time...mental-masturbation.
If you really wanted to know the odds...just ask! The ticket booth certainly would have told you how many tickets they sold. Plus, they are in a clear plastic bin. Did you look at the pile of tickets and guesstimate your odds of winning? If there were 10 times as many tickets (greater odds against) would you have NOT bought any tickets? I suspect you are more interested in playing "devil's advocate" on this whole issue rather than addressing a legitimate grievance.
As far as being "beat down", I'm not sure why you feel that way other than possibly being in the minority in your poinions. You are entitled to your opinions as am I. Just because people don't agree with you does not = "beat down"
I can tell you from experience that internet + devil's advocate usually = troll.
If you have a legit beef, then fine. But of you are just enthralled to pick things apart for the sport of it...stay away from those who don't share your enthusiasm. |
Take another look at my posts. Constructive criticism with real-world suggestions for improvement. You are the one attempting to argue economics, while I am pointing out human nature and practicality. I specifically steered AWAY from the type of bits-and-bytes analysis you just accused me of! And you seriously want to argue that those offering criticism here were not beat down? It's right here in this thread!
You have leapt to quite a few assumptions in your latest post. If the club wants to retract its invitation to provide feedback - what you are inexplicably referring to as 'mental masturbation' - then fine. But just because you think you should have the last word does not make it so, your personal attacks notwithstanding.
Also, contrary to one of your assumptions, I did not come here to get a 'grievance addressed'. I came here to provide feedback. You are obviously not open to it, and that's fine too. Just stop the troll accusations, comparisons with 'most folks' and so forth. Can't you accept the fact that someone has negative feedback - even if you don't agree with it? Is that so hard? |
First and foremost, I am representing nobody here but myself.
Your hostile tone is unwarranted as I have not attacked you personally.
You said -"They mentally assess their chances by looking at the attendance and making rough estimates about how many tickets will eventually be sold. No one ever said ticket purchasers get to find out "exact odds."
A good test of any theory is whether it holds up when it's scaled up. If, hypothetically, the tickets which wound up being owned by unseen people connected with the event rose to a point where they made a real dent compared to the tickets purchased by outsiders, it's easy to see how this would affect decision making. "
I disagreed with this and suggested that "most folks" don't follow this path of thinking nearly to that extent.
You also said - "Don't shoot the messenger. You can argue all you want that an individual ticket is worth $1 "period." But I bet the winner of the car would say his ticket was worth considerably more than $1. Likewise, after the drawing the value of the losing tickets is worth what? That's right, $0. That's the whole point. The value of the tickets *changes*. We're not selling widgets on the open market here. Ignore at your own peril."
Again, I don't think "most folks" see it this way.
The bulk of your text all seems very hypothetical and "playing the devil's advocate"...more designed to create controversy than be constructive.
I stand by my words. We can agree to disagree. You can choose to take offense as you see fit.
Any further debate on this will be between you and your diary as I am done.
The club puts on a killer show every year and I wish them continued success! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
type2bill
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2004
Posts: 48
Location: Pacific Northwest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes we asked for constructive criticism and comments, we will put them to discussion as we plan next years event. We have already had a very lengthy discussion one eve about different aspects of the show and will be working to make next year better. I personally have not and will not do any name calling or say anything derogatory about anyone, it is not my nature. People are entitled to their opinions and that is fine. I will continue to strive to put on a darn good VW show. Some things will definitely be different next year.
One person did mention that we waited between 5 and 10 minutes for the raffle winner of the car and that is not true it was much closer to a minute, on one or two of the early less cool things yes we waited awhile. one thing that will be better next year is sound in the swap area. Which will help in both door prizes, raffle and trophy presentation. And many other things will be addressed, and improved. Thank you to those that have voiced comments, criticism, and or compliments. Be sure that they have not fallen on deaf ears.
Bill |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Armstrong
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2007
Posts: 221
Location: Northern Rogue Valley
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hello,
Have the dates been set for the 2013 Vintage Meet yet? Please post if you know them thanks!
Over and Out, Mr. Armstrong |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KevinAlbrecht
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 970
Location: Ocean City > Boca > Pompano > Kirkland > Eugene
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It's the third Saturday of every July.
_________________
Kevin Albrecht
Wait, what...?
| WideFive wrote: |
| Single carbs are for lawn mowers! |
Don't forget those seat-belts!
Click to view image |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KevinAlbrecht
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 970
Location: Ocean City > Boca > Pompano > Kirkland > Eugene
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It's the third Saturday of every July.
_________________
Kevin Albrecht
Wait, what...?
| WideFive wrote: |
| Single carbs are for lawn mowers! |
Don't forget those seat-belts!
Click to view image |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
