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Fixing up the Winter "New" bus!~
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Phishman068
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Fixing up the Winter "New" bus!~ Reply with quote

So, two years ago now (wow, it's been that long!?) I picked up a bus as scrap metal for $320. It had around 60,000 miles on it, all the power options, and was in "ehh" shape. It was meant to be a parts bus, but we fell in love with it and soon it was driving again for the first time in 6 years! I meant for this bus to be my winter beater, and while it does that perfectly and now has for two winters, i'm also finding it to be a wonderful daily driver/commuter into the city (rather than the big syncro). My little brother drove it in my abscense and even took it to prom!
Now, with the syncro out of commission waiting on tires, I'm driving this bus exclusively. The auto trans and cruise control make for a wonderful ride, and the power options are now all working properly. I've tweaked this bus into something nice, and I'm proud of it.

Well today I pulled the fiberglass skirting to see just what might be hiding.... and boy was I surprised! : )
I knew it would be bad, hence i had the plan to pull it, and I plan to spray down there with bedliner before putting it back together. However, Now i'm seeing just how much metal I"ll have to replace, and I'm glad I"ve got a nice welder!
It looks like i'll be diving into the wonderful world of sheet metal repair!

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Luckily the only rust needing repaired is on this one side, and I can get both panels for under $100 shipped. So now the fun begins.
I have never done this on a car, at least not properly, and want to learn as I go. These repairs will be covered up, and this car only has to last me a few winters. All this replacement metal (more or less) will be seam sealed, covered in PROPER bedliner (U2000 Urethane based system), then covered by the fiberglass, so looks don't much matter.
What products should I purchase as far as seam sealers and tools go, and where can I get them?
I plan to just use a cut off wheel to cut out the old metal along the lines of the new metal once the new metal arrives, wire wheel the ugly bits, fabricate sheet bits to fill in where things don't line up, plug weld the interior seams and seam weld (slowly in small bits) the exterior bits where needed (for fill in panels for instance). Am I thinking of this right?
Obviously I then want to spray it with an acid like ospho, then an etching primer, then a top coat of some type right?
All interior and exterior bits of this car are going to be sprayed liberally with "fluid film" annually before the winters as a means of extending the life, but what should I paint the interior of the new panels with?
Thanks guys! You rock.

More pics to follow
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to my world.

I can't tell you how many Carats I have gone to look at before buying that had "no rust" in the description.
I arrive, check it out, ask if I can pull a piece of fiberglass to see underneath and wham...exactly what you are showing.
FYI, I always pull the drivers side piece between the wheels.
Westies have there spots near the water tanks and GL/Carats with the wrap around cladding have theres.

I'm glad you aren't planning just to fill the void with spray foam, bedliner it and replace the fiberglass.
Yup, seen that too.

If its a GL, you can easily pull the drivers inner middle panel to access the backside of that area.
Once the replacement panels are in....wax the inside.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome plan Dylan!
Spray foam...... hmmmmmmm.
: )
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The foams available at The Depot and Blowes will absorb moisture and accelerate the decay...just to be clear.

I do have Wurth 2 part pillar foam that will repel moisture...pricey and you need the two part applicator...I have it.

Please stick with the replacement panel plan Exclamation
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Replacement panels is still the plan.
Removing the rear bumper is proving challenging.
I have 4 of 6 bolts off, but the two "middle" ones I can't figure out how to access. What a crazy design.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the bumper off.
That makes 4 body panels total to purchase....
I scraped all the rusty bits a bit with a chisel and pealed back the undercoating to see just how bad things are and here's the semi final product:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Let the games begin!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here in NY that van would POSSIBLY not pass inspection...depends upon the shop.
In MASS, it would go straight to the junkers, no ifs, ands or buts about it....too far gone.

I highly recommend checking all suspension attachment points, engine and transmission mounts and associated frame attachment areas.

In a highway speed collision, she ain't going to crumble like it was designed too any longer.

Glad to see you saving it.

Cosmetics are one thing, structure is another.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The structure of it has been "largely" gone through 2 years ago when we put nearly 400 hours into removing things, wire wheeling, and painting with wurth rust guard. It's held up pretty well. The frame certainly has some rust, its' a crusty beast, but it's not in what I would call "bad" shape. All brake lines have been replaced as well as the hydraulic power steering lines. The only thing yet to come off is the engine and trans, and i would like to pull them and address rust as well.
There were a few issues with front suspension bits, and more will certainly show up, but it's a budget beater and treating me well so far. We broke one radius arm already, and the hole was slightly ovaled, but not nearly bad enough to require new metal. I plan to (later this summer) remove both radius rods and replace all the bushings with NEW ones that I have since purchased. Before we fixed it with used parts, in "ehh" shape.
The ball joints, tie rods, and control arms all move as they should. The front shocks were replaced with a known good set. This van has a set of weitec springs waiting in a box for it as well.
The brakes have been gone through, all new in the rear (except for the flex lines) and all new in the front (except for the flex lines). I am not happy with the brakes and have had some "weirdness" so have sourced the audi bits to put on big brakes as soon as I can find someone to turn my rotors into hubs (anyone perform this service?). It is running 15'' borbet rims using T3 spacers/lugs/studs and continental snow tires that stick to the road like a mountain goat.

I average 15mpg, but have done as well as 17mpg since recently replacing the oxygen sensor. I've fixed the power windows and I'm quite happy with them, as well as the power locks and cruise control. This bus is a sweet beater!
Now to buy some panels....
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Metal has been purchased.
What do you guys do about the fiberglass body mounts? Drill out the old rivets and install newer larger ones when you remount them?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use plastic rivets so when the cladding is hit it will easily break free and help limit the body damage.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today was a productive day.
I spent the bulk of the day in an engine room degreasing some marine diesels.... yuck! But, upon coming home I found a package of new sheet metal!
I chose to start on the passenger side, since I had the metal I needed to complete that side. I am still waiting on the rocker panel, which could take a while to get here.

Step 1: Remove old metal.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I wire wheeled the edges to bare metal to get a good weld, and backed the undercoat off quite a bit.

Step 2: Remove primer from the edges of the new metal and test fit/adjust (alot). I don't trust that the primer is weld through.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Step 3: Clamp it in place and weld it up. I hate welding upside down.
Nice fit though!
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Step 4: Continue adjusting and welding.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Step 5: Remove the other rusty bit. I cut this chunk out with a cut off wheel and have started to replicate it out of a sheet of steel. I miss my anvil though. : (

Metal fabrication without an anvil (and a forge for that matter) is just a pain in the @$&! I'll be bringing back the anvil and forge before this project is up.
Sadly there is a good bit of the horizontal plate (in the engine bay behind the passenger side taillight) will have to be replaced as well. : /
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


More to come tomorrow!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New metal in place:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And a coat or two of Upol Etch Primer (the most expensive can of primer i've ever even heard of....)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I had a bit of trouble making that patch piece fit well and loook good, but in the end i'm going to cover it all with bedliner and fiberglass skirting, so it's fine. It's structural and will out live the rest of the car.
There is a horizontal piece behind the taillight not pictured that also had to be replaced on both sides. : /

So next I went around the pass side and dealt with the rest of the rust. I ground down the area around where the body panel rivets go through and primed them, as well as any rusty bits.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Somehow I didn't take a picture of the seams?
I took each seam and picked out all the old seam sealer with a dental pick and some patience. Next I washed them down with an acid etch, and sprayed them with the proper etch primer. These seams will receive new seam sealer as well.

Today's corner:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So far:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

She is...was a rusty bird.

Upol is good stuff.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some progress.
Finally, metal!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And fill in the corner...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Pulled the interior and surprisingly little rust back there.
Hmmm.....
It looks like that horizontal panel is actually in great shape, which means once my replacement rocker shows up i can hopefully use only the bottom portion of it! This will allow my welded seam to be below the line of which i'm bedlining in the end, which will be good.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Two holes in the frame rail behind the rocker panel.
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One done.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Seam sealer has been liberally globbed and smeared over all new and old seams, from both sides. Here it is at the new horizontal panels behind the taillights:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And the outside seams:
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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next up, one thin layer of proper body filler, a few coats of primer, some sanding, and then topcoating it with Upol Raptor.
But before then, waiting on the rocker panel. That's not going to be fun.....
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good and congrats on welding in themes metal.

You should make sure to get rid of the remaining rust above the replacement panel (use a flap disc, heavy wire wheel or if possible blast media).

If left, even covered with rocker gaurd, that area will rust out rapidly.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That area was ground clean with a wire wheel and then a flapper disk, treated with an acid etch, then an etch primer. I recon it won't return.
Some more progress has been made.
I went back to the paint store and tossed them yet another $60 or so that I don't have budgeted towards this project for another $20+ can of primer (hi build Upol this time), some gloves, and a high quilty micro filler.
Fill, sand, (degrease, prime) repeat.
I hate this process!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It's not perfect, it's not quite professional, but its my first bus work, and i'm proud of it. I spent a summer doing autobody 5 years ago, but never anything from start to finish. I'm happy with the results, and by the time the textured finish is sprayed, it will look top notch. The Upol raptor is an amazing product for leveling and reducing imperfections. It really rocks!
Also, tough as nails.
The products i've used so far on this project i've been very impressed with. Certainly higher quality than the "professional" products we used at the body shop i used to work at. The primer doesn't wash off with grease and wax remover, nor does the filler. The filler sets up fast and is tough as can be, yet sands nicely if you hit it at the right point in the cure. The seam sealer is mega sticky and yet remains pliable, paintable, and sandable. GOOD STUFF ALL AROUND!


Sadly though, today I also touched the front suspension and found that both front upper control arms do not move freely, and barely move with an 8lb sledge. Looks like i'll have to pull them and replace the upper bushings. : /
Again, well out of budget. I had to heat the bolts on the upper ball joints to get them off, so those joints are likely in need of a replacement as well (though no play in them), again, out of budget. At this rate i'll never afford tires for the syncro, and it will sit all summer before going into winter storage (and this winter bus will continue to get love, money, and attention. There's something VERY backwards with this situation.....)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Progress has been made!
While waiting for new metal to arrive I found that my front suspension sucks. It was rock solid and my upper control arms wouldn't move, even with a sledge hammer! Well thanks to some good friends, I've got new upper control arms on and they move properly, as well as new upper ball joints and freshly installed Weitec sport springs.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cleaned up and painted the area behind the new rocker panel while the giant hole gave me access. All metal ground down with a flapper disk until shiny, pitted material was primed with etch primer, and all was top coated with enamel paint. This area will be thoroughly soaked in Fluid Film once all is done.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My new material arrived finally! Since all the metal above the lower horizontal seam is in good shape, and the horizontal panel behind the interior panel shows no major rust, I decided not to install the entire new rocker panel, as it would have left my new seam exposed. It sure would have been easier... but in the end i'm very happy with the results! I cut the new panel along the lower horizontal seam, cleaned it all up, and welded it in place painstakingly one tack weld at a time. Butt welding sucks when the panel is 4' long! It takes forever!!!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ground down with a thin coat of the good stuff, much more sanding left in this image. Probably half of that material removed.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This corner was more or less missing in this hidden panel back in the wheel well. Again, another surprise that needed to be fixed! So, I ended up cutting the wheel arch back further than I originally intended (and now will have a seam showing.... .not sure what i'm going to do about that yet) and went at it. Here's the freshly built corner.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

All seams then ground, liberally slimed up with seam sealer, and will be top coated with some kind of undercoating material (not yet decided).

New wheel arch section tacked in place.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dealt with all the rust on the rear end. Ground down, acid etched, and top coated.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The front horizontal seam, known to rust out, was not at all bad on this one. Wire wheeled down, etched, primed, and top coated.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hopefully I can rebuild the radius rods and get the wheels back on soon! Anyone know what size wrench is needed to remove the radius rod? I belive it's a 25mm?
Hopefully we can get it painted up early next week, in for alignment, and BACK ON THE ROAD!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC, 27mm for the radius rod nuts.
Both of the Corter Syncro rods snapped in half when I went to remove them.
Fun, fun, fun with rusty vans.

Didn't you replace a rod over the winter?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. Good memory!
One side (drivers) snapped over the winter and we put on a used one and set of used bushings In barely usable condition. I've got all new bushing and sleeves to put on and if its going in for an alignment, now is the time.
I do fear I'll break the other side upon removal though. : /
I loath that job, as that arm has not moved in ages.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tried to get the radius rod off the pass side, not so lucky. I was able to free up the adjustment nuts and get the forward bushing off, but the threaded section in the control arm isn't moving. One thought Is to just replace the outer bushin on that side, and both on the other (which should be able to come off). 3 new bushings is better than a broken rod and having to pull the entire lower control arm.
Any ideas or thoughts?
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482402&highlight=sunroof+syncro
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569774
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6864936#6864936

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