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Introduction / 2.6L I5 engine build
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nmerrill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:51 am    Post subject: Introduction / 2.6L I5 engine build Reply with quote

Hey folks.
Long time Lurker (actually joined in '05 under different name) but mostly spent my youth lurking on the Vanagon, and then Syncro list.

I've had my Syncro Westy since '98 Very Happy

Several years ago I had a 5 cylinder (audi NF - 2.3L) installed using a "kit" from a fellow named Detlev, whom I believe is still active in the community.

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I've put about 50K miles on that engine mostly trouble free. Well, I suspect my wife might point out the blown out exhaust down pipe, and failed (new rebuilt Bosch) alternator that, ah, interrupted our Honeymoon... but who is nit pickin? Smile

That engine's performance was "fine", like the weather.

When I found a eurospec 2.6 L 5 cylinder with low miles locally, I decided I needed it! I've already got everything in there for the 5 cylinder, why not a 2.6 L stroker! How hard could it be...?

OOPS!

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So, enough BS, let's get to it!

This is my first Auto engine build and I've been trolling for help over on Motorgeek, but thought see if there are any VW specialists over here Razz

So let me plagiarize my self a little...

This Eurospec built block is *supposedly* built on the VW block from the South African 2.6L transporters. It is a 95.5 mm stroke, and supposed to be a block height of 221.35 mm compared to the "standard" 220mm (7A, NF, 3B...)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My intentions are to put a 20V (7A) head on it, and run VW 9A pistons in it. An AAN intake, 7A bag-o-snakes, and 034efi round out the package.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next post, compression ratio calculations etc..

As I said, this is a new adventure for me, and I've got questions! Hope someone here can help.

Nat
[/img]


Last edited by nmerrill on Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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rubbachicken
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, very interesting Cool

keep the pictures coming
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking forward to seeing your progress. I've long contended that these are the engines VW should've offered in the T3 from the get-go
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snowsyncro
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for starting this; this will be interesting. Also interesting is that cylinder head. I was surprised to see a vacuum pump on a gasoline engine.

RonC
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nmerrill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:20 am    Post subject: Compression ratios... Reply with quote

Ok, so as I mentioned, I intend to use VW 9A pistons with a 20V (7A) head - the 20V head is primarily so that the intake is on the "correct" side of the engine.

I measured the volume of my head using a serological pipette and canola oil. Three different pockets measured out to almost exactly 45.5 cc.

The 9A pistons are essentially flat top - two small valve clearances, and a 0.5 mm raised band surrounding them mostly cancel them out (I calculated about -0.14 cc total)
Multiple references on the internet indicate the 9A to have a compression height of 30.2 mm.
A VW piston manual I have indicates 29.8mm

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So, if stroke is 95.5mm
rods are 144mm
block is 221.35
then the 9A pistons should pop out of the block by 0.2mm, which is the same amount they would on the 9A (difference in stroke is 1.35mm = (95.5 -92.Cool/2)

So, the comp ratio of this block, with 9A pistons and that head looks like this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the Not2fast calculator and most of the specs are pre-filled from the VW 9A engine. I did change the piston dome spec which was wrong.

Anyone see anything else wrong in that data?
Since I will be running 034 EFI standalone, which has no knock sensing capability, and I've taken this van places that had 85.5 octane - only- before, I can't stay at 10.4:1 compression ratio.

So, using that calculator, if I had 1mm milled off the pistons, then the ratio would look like this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Notice the change in deck height to 0.8- indicating the pistons at TDC should be 0.8mm below the top of the block, instead of 0.2mm above, as before.
Now the CR would be 9.6 or so. From what I've found, this should be OK for even pretty bad gas, with a careful tune.
What do you think?

Nat
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nmerrill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snowsyncro wrote:
Thanks for starting this; this will be interesting. Also interesting is that cylinder head. I was surprised to see a vacuum pump on a gasoline engine.

RonC


Thats is a 10V audi head, maybe an NG head? I know the NF head did not have a pump like that...

I bought the entire engine for the block.
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nmerrill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the response y'all..

So, everything looked great "on paper".
I tore the engine down...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then I pulled # 1 and put a 9A piston on the rod to take a look at TDC...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



HMMM Eh?

For those paying attention, what is wrong with this picture? Question Question
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the photo, it looks like the 9A piston goes above correct deck height at TDC. A 221.35mm block should have perfectly compensated for the stroke difference between the 9A and the 2.6 motor. It must mean you have a 220mm block. You can always shave the tops of the pistons by 2mm.

D
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nmerrill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
In the photo, it looks like the 9A piston goes above correct deck height at TDC. A 221.35mm block should have perfectly compensated for the stroke difference between the 9A and the 2.6 motor. It must mean you have a 220mm block. You can always shave the tops of the pistons by 2mm.

D


Well, it's a crappy picture, but that piston is actually 0.5mm BELOW the deck...
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nmerrill wrote:
D Clymer wrote:
In the photo, it looks like the 9A piston goes above correct deck height at TDC. A 221.35mm block should have perfectly compensated for the stroke difference between the 9A and the 2.6 motor. It must mean you have a 220mm block. You can always shave the tops of the pistons by 2mm.

D


Well, it's a crappy picture, but that piston is actually 0.5mm BELOW the deck...


Well, that's good. So it's about what you were expecting, right?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The valve reliefs are for a valve train that is not square to the piston. That is about a flat top piston. With your cc'd combustion chamber measurement, I'd think your compression is much higher than 9 something to 1. As long as your valves clear the pistons by .050" it should work. But my bet is high test with a knock sensor.
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nmerrill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
nmerrill wrote:
D Clymer wrote:
In the photo, it looks like the 9A piston goes above correct deck height at TDC. A 221.35mm block should have perfectly compensated for the stroke difference between the 9A and the 2.6 motor. It must mean you have a 220mm block. You can always shave the tops of the pistons by 2mm.

D


Well, it's a crappy picture, but that piston is actually 0.5mm BELOW the deck...


Well, that's good. So it's about what you were expecting, right?


Not exactly.

From above:

So, if stroke is 95.5mm
rods are 144mm
block is 221.35
then the 9A pistons should pop out of the block by 0.2mm, which is the same amount they would on the 9A (difference in stroke is 1.35mm = (95.5 -92.Cool/2)

I've tried measuring the block but I don't have the proper tool. Once I came up with 221.36, the second time with 221.73, so there is some slop in my method.

Now, it is true that the pistons below the deck give me a more favorable ratio from the start, I think it comes out to 9.8:1.

The OCD in me REALLY wants to know why the math does not reflect reality though...
I've measured the piston compression height as best I can and this the manual is correct.
I suspect the rods are the right length!
The stroke is in fact 95.5
That leaves the block, eh?

So, does anyone actually know - what is the actual height of the 2.6L block?
I can only figure that mine at least is taller than the 221.35 that I was told by eurospec, and would make sense based off the math compared to a 9A... Brick wall
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
I've long contended that these are the engines VW should've offered in the T3 from the get-go

I agree. It seems though the 5 cyl doesn't get much love here
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to go with the 20V head, you are going to need a water manifold, compatible distributor, cylinder head, injector rail and injectors, etc etc. The 7A head also uses a different timing belt arrangement. Collecting these parts can add up to a lot of $.

Below is a link to a fellow selling an AAN turbo engine which will give you all the above, less the distributor, plus an intake manifold that is lower profile than the stock 7A manifold. Or . . . . you might just be tempted to install the AAN engine.

AAN engine for $1,000: http://www.audifans.com/marketplace/show.php?table=pm_audifans_Parts&id=21676

Here's a link to a fellow who modified an Audi 7A intake manifold to allow him to install a 3B Audi turbo engine, which is essentially the AAN with a distributor and peripherals for installation in the Type 44 Audi 100 chassis:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=210307
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been out of the Audi world for awhile but the last person I remember building a engine like you desire used a Eurovan tall block.

I think a 20V five banger would fit a little better in a vanagon anyway with the intake manifold on the opposite site of the head, unlike the 10v. Why not go ITBs ? ha
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Last edited by onwardtothestars on Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

regis101 wrote:
Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
I've long contended that these are the engines VW should've offered in the T3 from the get-go

I agree. It seems though the 5 cyl doesn't get much love here


Dear Regis and Zeitgeist:

One day, my modded URS4 or my wife's URS6 will get smacked in an intersection. You can have dib$ on the motors. Love the smoothness and power when in the S-cars, but too much torque for my little Syncro gearbox.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice choice. You'll like the 034 stuff. I put their injector conversion kit and resistor bypass pigtail on my 20V. I may know where a 20V head is at a wrecking yard if you need me to pull and ship it. Though a lot of them are in your neck of the woods.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

always nice to see another I5 build.
not sure where in VT you are but we've taken our 2.5 Ev powered vanagon up over the camel's hump on Rt17
I still have some EV 2.5 and Audi I5 na & turbo motors in the shed. (no 20v or 7a though)
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nmerrill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
If you want to go with the 20V head, you are going to need a water manifold, compatible distributor, cylinder head, injector rail and injectors, etc etc. The 7A head also uses a different timing belt arrangement. Collecting these parts can add up to a lot of $.

Below is a link to a fellow selling an AAN turbo engine which will give you all the above, less the distributor, plus an intake manifold that is lower profile than the stock 7A manifold. Or . . . . you might just be tempted to install the AAN engine.

AAN engine for $1,000: http://www.audifans.com/marketplace/show.php?table=pm_audifans_Parts&id=21676

Here's a link to a fellow who modified an Audi 7A intake manifold to allow him to install a 3B Audi turbo engine, which is essentially the AAN with a distributor and peripherals for installation in the Type 44 Audi 100 chassis:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=210307


Indeed!

Well, I've got 3 20V heads on the shelf - one fully rebuilt.
A powder coated AAN intake
7A Bag-o-snakes header
20V oil pan
a few distributors (one new)
fuel rail
034EFI 1B ecu

And lots of other 20V stuff.


I just sold my 200 20V avant that I owned for almost 10 years...

I don't want to put a turbo in this van. The only reason I have considered it anyway, is how easy the exhaust would be.

With the build I'm looking at, I could very easily add a turbo later, but as I said, I really don't want it.

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nmerrill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
always nice to see another I5 build.
not sure where in VT you are but we've taken our 2.5 Ev powered vanagon up over the camel's hump on Rt17
I still have some EV 2.5 and Audi I5 na & turbo motors in the shed. (no 20v or 7a though)


You mean this camels Hump?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That's taken off my deck Smile

Rt 17 actually goes over App gap (in the Camels Hump St forest), and past Mad River Glen ski area.
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