| Author |
Message |
GTman
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2013
Posts: 63
Location: Los Angeles
|
 Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:51 pm Post subject: Vintage Speedster - Cont to 5 Wide Wheels Question HELP |
 |
|
I have a 2000 Vintage Speedster with a swing (short axle) rear end.
My only question relates to what's needed at the rear to swap from the current 4 lug VW wheels (drums) to 5 wide wheels.
I recently replaced my rear break shoes and discovered that (while I have a short axle swing axle), I have the wider brake shoes and 4 lug drums.
It's rumored all that's needed to make the switch is to replace the existing 4 lug drums with 1967 5 wide drums (such as the AC Industries drums sold by So Cal Imports).
Can anyone out there confirm or comment on this?
I would greatly apprecate any input.
Thanks, Grant |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6768
Location: Northern California
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you go with 67 rear brake drums you'll need to change to 30mm wide brake shoes and wheel cylinders with spacing to match.
The only 5 wide drums that fit 40mm wide Type 1 rear shoes I know of are Thing. So, to put 5 wide drums on short axle-short spline axles and keep the 40mm wide shoes you say you have now, you will need to install Thing drums which have had 9/16" milled off the snout of each drum. Or, you could use long axle tubes 67-68 with 68 long spline axles and a standard Thing drum. The second option would be more work but probably better results, if the wheels cleared your fenders
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1195123
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EVfun 
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 6133
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Or, you could use long axle tubes 67-68 with 68 long spline axles and a standard Thing drum. |
You can put '68 axles in '67 axle tubes?
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
manxdavid
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003
Posts: 1841
Location: David Jones, Anglesey, North Wales, UK. Manxclub #678.
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
66-67 style wide 5 rear drums can be used with the wider, later rear brake shoes, as long as you use new drums that haven't been worn by narrow shoes. If you were fitting them to later long axles with long splines you'd need a spacer kit, I think EMPI do them.
But if you've got short shafts with short splines you may be OK, of you may just need a thin spacer behind the drum.
Read 1/2 way down this page...
http://www.earlyvw.com/page3.htm |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6768
Location: Northern California
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| EVfun wrote: |
| You can put '68 axles in '67 axle tubes? |
Yes, the only difference between 67 and 68 axles is the splined section is longer.
| manxdavid wrote: |
| 66-67 style wide 5 rear drums can be used with the wider, later rear brake shoes, as long as you use new drums that haven't been worn by narrow shoes. |
So I guess you could have them turned and have the face cut 40mm + wide? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
manxdavid
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003
Posts: 1841
Location: David Jones, Anglesey, North Wales, UK. Manxclub #678.
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BL3Manx wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
| You can put '68 axles in '67 axle tubes? |
Yes, the only difference between 67 and 68 axles is the splined section is longer.
| manxdavid wrote: |
| 66-67 style wide 5 rear drums can be used with the wider, later rear brake shoes, as long as you use new drums that haven't been worn by narrow shoes. |
So I guess you could have them turned and have the face cut 40mm + wide? |
Yes, but TBH turning/skimming drums and discs is seldom done in the UK these days as new ones are so inexpensive and for safety reasons. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 6133
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BL3Manx wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
| You can put '68 axles in '67 axle tubes? |
Yes, the only difference between 67 and 68 axles is the splined section is longer. |
I thought the '68 also did away with the separate spacer inside of the outer bearing. Because of this I thought there might be more differences in the axle/tube assembly and dimensions. I'm running '67 axles and tubes (with '58-'64 brakes), future access to '68 up parts could be a plus.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6768
Location: Northern California
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| EVfun wrote: |
| I thought the '68 also did away with the separate spacer inside of the outer bearing. Because of this I thought there might be more differences in the axle/tube assembly and dimensions. I'm running '67 axles and tubes (with '58-'64 brakes), future access to '68 up parts could be a plus. |
I don't have one of each in front of me to double check but I think the 68 also uses the thin inner spacer and even if they don't the axle tube end castings are identical on 67 and 68, so the bearing location is exactly the same on both and you can definitely put 68 axles in your 67 tubes. Here is a pic of a long spline swing axle I found. It has a spacer.
This picture shows them together, looks like short and long spline would need the same spacer.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6768
Location: Northern California
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11151
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yep and those conversion drums take advantage of the 40mm wide shoes. They do add 2mm per side (4mm total) track width... Probably not an issue in this case.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6768
Location: Northern California
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ken, you sent me some pictures PM that show I was mistaken and there definitely is a difference between the 67 and 68 end castings. The section where the bearing sits is deeper and the bearing retainer cover is thinner on the 68.
You should post them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 6133
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Yep and those conversion drums take advantage of the 40mm wide shoes. They do add 2mm per side (4mm total) track width... Probably not an issue in this case. |
Interesting, because I spent some time reading about this earlier today. It seems that fitting early drums on late brakes narrow track by 4mm each side (can't find the link now...) I will point out that if you have the early smooth center drums I don't think you can shave them to fit later brakes! The stock brakes pretty well fill those up. They may shave a couple mm off the track width compared to the common '58-'67 replacement brake drum (watch your lug bolts too, all mine had to be shaved.)
It looks like Thing drums have a lot of extra material on the outside, so while they are bolt on (same backing plates as late Beetle) they will increase track width somewhere between 15mm and 20mm each side! Perhaps early short axles with late Bug brakes and Thing drums would be about the same track width as a '68 Bug.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 6133
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BL3Manx wrote: |
Ken, you sent me some pictures PM that show I was mistaken and there definitely is a difference between the 67 and 68 end castings. The section where the bearing sits is deeper and the bearing retainer cover is thinner on the 68.
You should post them. |
That makes a little more sense now. I know I'm running '67 axles and tubes and '59 brakes and bearing covers (without the slingers -- I forbid the transaxle to leak.) It had a '67 transaxle when I bought it and I bought wheels before I realized it wasn't a 40HP box. Then the box howled and I had to replace it (with a 40HP box.) While replacing it I found gear teeth between one axle and side gear. That is when I found out that I had '67 only axles (and put on correct brakes from a Bug I had parted out.) All of this was done over 20 years ago and a good used '67 axle was already a pain to find.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11151
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BL3Manx wrote: |
Ken, you sent me some pictures PM that show I was mistaken and there definitely is a difference between the 67 and 68 end castings. The section where the bearing sits is deeper and the bearing retainer cover is thinner on the 68.
You should post them. |
Ok...will do...
I did measure these with a Micrometer, (last year for ref) but photed them with a tape.
You can see the 68 axle is has longer splines, and overall is slightly longer than the 67 axle. Im sure it was created to be able to take advantage of the deeper splines on the 4 lug 68 and newer drums.
The key is to match your end casting tube depth to the correct bearing cap. The overall tube length is the same to the flange, and the difference and bearing fit is the same, but you cant mix match 67 and 68 end castings and bearing caps.
Even though the axles are different lengths the axles are interchangeable to the tubes.
I have a 68 transaxle Im currently using, it has a left 67 tube/cap, right 68 tube/cap and 2 67 axles...
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited
Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:20 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6768
Location: Northern California
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
That also explains a mystery that's puzzled me. I have several sets of spare long axles and tubes, 67 and 68. I've wondered why I have so many IRS type bearing caps(I thought) and so few swingaxle type, some are actually 68 swingaxle!
I'll make sure to keep them straight now |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
manxdavid
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003
Posts: 1841
Location: David Jones, Anglesey, North Wales, UK. Manxclub #678.
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
Can I just add that for the rest of the world, 1967 1200 and 1300 Beetles had wide 5 rear drums and short axle shafts, and 1500 Beetles had long axle shafts and 4 bolt drums (c/w disc brakes on the front).
The '67 axle combinations that you're showing were just about unique to American market cars. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11151
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| manxdavid wrote: |
The '67 axle combinations that you're showing were just about unique to American market cars. |
Maybe some other counties as well .. I was informed (not witnesed) that some countries like Mexico/Brazil Beetles used swing axles, with long axles (68 style) 4 lug, and the overload Z bar helper spring until the end of production.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
manxdavid
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003
Posts: 1841
Location: David Jones, Anglesey, North Wales, UK. Manxclub #678.
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
| manxdavid wrote: |
The '67 axle combinations that you're showing were just about unique to American market cars. |
Maybe some other counties as well .. I was informed (not witnesed) that some countries like Mexico/Brazil Beetles used swing axles, with long axles (68 style) 4 lug, and the overload Z bar helper spring until the end of production. |
That's why I was careful to say American and not US so I'd include Central and South America. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11151
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| manxdavid wrote: |
That's why I was careful to say American and not US so I'd include Central and South America. |
Yeah I caught that... I was simply clarifying and hoped you would as well.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11151
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
Double delete
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited
Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
