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What happened to my CV joints?
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riceye
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:31 pm    Post subject: What happened to my CV joints? Reply with quote

I tore the axles from my 87 Westy today to get to the bottom of a cv joint issue. The problem actually started last year - clicking when turning that progressed into an imbalance at highway speeds. When things would begin to wobble I could rectify by simply depressing the clutch and coasting a bit, then re-engaging the clutch. This has gotten progressively worse over the last thousand miles.

A little history on the cv's. They were installed new in 2007 when the van had about 140,000 miles (the odometer is now at just about 200,000). They are Italian made Metelli, and have been serviced (axles swapped left to right and relubed) once since the install prior to the clicking. About a 30,000 mile service interval by my records. I've used a high quality black moly grease - up until now. The ride height of the rear is 17.5", and while there is some offset of the axles, I don't think it is too extreme. Last summer I did a second axle swap/relube prior to a 6,000 mile road trip when I noticed the clicking. During the trip the clicking persisted, and the wobbly bit developed in the last 2,000 miles of the trip.

During the previous summer (2013) the van made a few off road trips, including a lengthy jaunt way north of the Chumstick Highway to Trinity on the Chiwawa River Road and up through Hay Canyon in Washington. Pretty strong washboard on both. In Montana I traveled to the beautiful little town of Alpine out of Roscoe which was a lo-o-ong stretch of washboard at a pretty fast pace. And the trip up to Fairy Lake north of Bozeman. I'm not doing that in my Westy again! That was sort of like rock-hopping for the old girl. As a rule, I go where I want to go with ill regard to the van. I am rethinking this strategy.

Anyway, today I disassembled the cv's, and every one looks to need replacement. The best one only has a bit of chipping on the cage, while the other three all show signs of spalling in both the inner and outer races. Additionally, in three of the four cv's, at least one of the balls are damaged. When taken apart, the joints were assembled properly with respect to clocking and orientation, and the boots were intact. I've pictured the worst.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My plan is to replace the cv's with Lobro joints, new boots and an overabundance of a high quality synthetic grease.

I'd sure like to hear your theories on what happened.

Thanks!
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked Amazing they didn't fall apart before you pulled them off.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since all four were failing it sounds like a quality issue to me. In close to 40 years of running CV's I have had the failure of one joint that was bad when I bought the rig and early wear to four joints that had insufficient grease installed at the factory. Other than that I have had around a million trouble free miles.
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Merian
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good things from Italy:
- food
- wine
- women
- sports car sounds


Bad things from Italy:

- anything mechanical
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

60,000 miles?
Seems reasonable to me..

Sure you can probably get more miles out of a set of Lobro/GKN 944CVs.. but I'd never let 60k mile CVs stop me from visiting places I want to visit.

I've had "new" Vanagon CVs self destruct in less than 15k... Heat seems to be the killer.
And quality is hit and miss.. of that set 2 were damaged and 2 were not.

I also ride at 17.5 and I run over-sized tires and have longer travel than stock.
I abandoned Vanagaon CVs for the 944s.. I don't know of I'll get more miles or not... but so far.. so good.
Lobro/GKNs seem to hold up better than others if one listens to conventional wisdom..

(I am not anti-Italian.. I drove a Fiat Spider for years.. Loved that car.
Not as tempermental as some suggest. But it did like a regular tuning.)
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danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The photo seems to show that the CV was running with the balls right at the very edge of the races, ie, over-extended.
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candyman
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merian wrote:
Good things from Italy:
- food
- wine
- women
- sports car sounds


Bad things from Italy:

- anything mechanical



I challenge the wine but will add espresso machine like La Pavoni Stradivari lever pull
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake de Villiers wrote:
The photo seems to show that the CV was running with the balls right at the very edge of the races, ie, over-extended.

My originals showed wear in about that area, too. Piror to lifting to 17.5"
I did not see much change to the wear location once the lift was done.. but the CVs did begin to click with in a yr or so.. ~5k.
I assumed that the lift moved the new wear off just enough that the edges of the old wear were now being hit.. and thus the clicking.
Once they began to click, they were done.. pittign occurred and the balls showed heat staining.
In my case, there was no bringing them back to life at that point. I spent a lot of time cleaning, regreasing, and reversing.. They were fine around town, but the clicking was back on the firts muilti-100 mile trip.
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-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"

"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5

danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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RCB
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

candyman wrote:
Merian wrote:
Good things from Italy:
- food
- wine
- women
- sports car sounds


Bad things from Italy:

- anything mechanical



I challenge the wine but will add espresso machine like La Pavoni Stradivari lever pull



And Opera Cool
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photogdave
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

candyman wrote:
Merian wrote:
Good things from Italy:
- food
- wine
- women
- sports car sounds


Bad things from Italy:

- anything mechanical



I challenge the wine but will add espresso machine like La Pavoni Stradivari lever pull


I like me a nice Amarone almost as much as my afternoon espresso!
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Merian
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

candyman wrote:
Merian wrote:
Good things from Italy:
- food
- wine
- women
- sports car sounds


Bad things from Italy:

- anything mechanical



I challenge the wine but will add espresso machine like La Pavoni Stradivari lever pull


oh yeh - espresso & machines thereof - former could be included under "food"

you need to try out barbaresco & barolo


------------


bottom line here is if kept greased properly and not all run at odd angles, it has to be bad materials
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candyman
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merian wrote:
candyman wrote:
Merian wrote:
Good things from Italy:
- food
- wine
- women
- sports car sounds


Bad things from Italy:

- anything mechanical



I challenge the wine but will add espresso machine like La Pavoni Stradivari lever pull


oh yeh - espresso & machines thereof - former could be included under "food"

you need to try out barbaresco & barolo


------------


bottom line here is if kept greased properly and not all run at odd angles, it has to be bad materials


Pretty well versed on both. Not saying they dont have good wines, but much like most things Italian, quality is all over the place, The DOC means nothing to them and is never enforced. So simply put you could buy $50 bottle of barolo of DOC stamping and get a $5 bottle of Jacob Creek quality. Thats what irritates me. Atleast the French respect the AOC and it is enforced. And you mostly get what you pay for with their wine. For wine newbies it can be frustrating venturing into Italian wines.
What does this have to do with CVs? I dunno... 😉
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photogdave
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

candyman wrote:

What does this have to do with CVs? I dunno... 😉


By the time you've replaced all your CVs all you can afford to drink is cheap Trebbiano! Laughing
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