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A Hot 2165 engine for my '71 panelvan (beehive valvetrain)
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vince1
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: A Hot 2165 engine for my '71 panelvan (beehive valvetrain) Reply with quote

As you all seems to like engine building posts, and since I started to give some advices around here, in order to not to be considered as "keyboard dreamer" I decided to share with you my 2165 engine build for my bus.

So first of all the bus, '71 DD panelvan build for fun, and yes it's me in front of it.

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This is not my first engine, I started by the stock 1600SP and gone with a 1775SP, 1775DP, 2074 and now this 2165.

I've built several others engines for friends such as a 2007 hot street NA, 2007 turbo, 1835 TW camper cruiser...

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So now you know a little more about me, go for this 2165 engine, here are specs. No changes will be made as the engine is built and running and being tuned, I'll just share the build here.

Case : Brazil AS41 mag case, 69*94, full flowed, hand cleared for stroker crank, Bob Hoover mod, 15mm heads nuts mod, sleeved lifter bores, #3 bearing saddle modified to put a second center bearing, all breathing passages massaged, breather vent on #3 cylinder.

Seals and sealing compounds : Victor Reinz seals, Elring silicon main seal, case closed with curil T paste, cylinders installed with RTV106 silicon, all fasteners torqued with ARP lube. All parts lubed with torco MPZ, Cam Shield paste on cam and lifters, Total seal rings sealing compound.

Crank : 78 mm Flat4 4340 forged chromoly, VW mains, VW rods, steelbacked NOS K&S bearings, 36 mm chromoly gland nut, machined for 11/32" dowels.

Flywheel :
NOS stock 200 mm flywheel, stock weight, 8 doweled.

Clutch : Kennedy stage 1, ACE copperhead disc

All parts balanced with gears installed on crank

Rods : DRD 5.4" i-Beams, 3/8" ARP 8740 bolts, end to end blanced, "oil squirters" modified, Clevite77 bearings.

Pistons and liners : AA performance 94 mm , B stroke, balanced, Berg clips, #1213 CB performance tool steel light wrist pins shortened for slipper skirts pistons, Deves rings, CBC-1 coated tops.

Cam : Engle FK44, deburred, Magnum straight cut gears, Clemex dual trust bearings.

Lifters : 56g Torsten Pieper 28 mm tool steel lifters.

Pushrods : Smith brothers Aluminum, oil squirters modified ala Ray Vallero Jaycee pushrods tubes.

Rockers : 1.4:1 CB performance, matched weights

Heads : Die cast China casting Steve Tims Stage 2 heads, ordered bare, un-machined for dual springs, 3 angles valve job, CBC-1 coating in chambers and exhaust ports.

Valves : CB racemaster #1372 42 mm intake valve, #1370 38 mm exhaust valve, 2 angles job, CBC-1 coated.

Valve springs : Comp Cams #26125 Beehive springs

Retainers : Titanium Comp-Cams #762.

Valve locks : Forged Chromoly Comp-Cams #628.

Lash caps : Comp-Cams #619.

Manifolds : Bugpack #1038 match ported by Greg Tims

Valve covers : Scat stainless steel, oil drain from 3/4 cover to deep sump.

CR : 9.47:1, 0.04" Deck, 57 cc chambers

Oiling : 30 mm Brosol oil pump, fully massaged and blue printed, full flowed, GB239B bypass Berg cover, K&N HP3001 filter, Racimex Oil Thermostat, external oil cooler. Stock dog house oil cooler. 1.5 qt Scat sump, Bugpack oil succion kit, Jaycee billet magnet oil sump plate.

Cooling : Scat 36HP dog house shroud, welded and balanced OEM VW fan, Awesome powdercoat venturi ring.

Exhaust : 1"5/8 stainless steel A1 Sidewinder Header, 2"1/2 A1 magnalfow muffler, lambda bung option.

Ignition: Pertronix billet distributor with ignitor 2 ignition module, Pertronix flame thrower 2 coil, #2003 CB magnaspark II spark plugs wires, Pertronix second strike ignition box, NGK DCPR7E plugs.

Carburation : Dual dellorto 48 DRLA carbs 38 venturies, #7348 CB dellorto jets doctors, currently being tuned so no jets sizes for now. Facet gold flow #480532E fuel pump, 8mm lines, king fuel pressure regulator, home made cable linkage.

Here is the completed engine :

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I gonna detail you the entire engine build, part receptions, parts prep, engines moke ups, final assembling and cam breaking, so be warned, lots of pics coming Wink
_________________
my French blog http://panelvan.skynetblogs.be/

Click here for my full pix detailed 2165 engine build with beehive valvetrain.

Sorry for my poor English, I'm a French guy ... Wink


Last edited by vince1 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fivelugshortaxle
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good looking motor....The bus has a nice, nose down stance. Killer

I'll be paying attention to the rest of this thread...very similar to my build...even if mine has changed to this and that and whatever.
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New build in the works
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams balanced by Brothers VW
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long EXR304 [email protected] .399 lift @ cam
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
AA stainless 1 5/8 sidewinder
Dellorto 45's
Vintage Speed center pull linkage
Vintage Speed air cleaners
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jfats808
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im happy to see you putting a 94mm piston based engine in a bus. Ive done it a few times already and no problems with overheating on customers builds. Hell, I have to call them to inquire on how it runs after they PCS-ed. Press on!
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2017 48 Trijet DRLA's W125

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You might as well put 10 year build in your bullshit sig, as it will NEVER run. Also your a dick

You can always learn something new, even from a fool.
Check your oil levels routinely!

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esde
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look forward to seeing more progress, I have used your skynet blogs for reference many times. The level of detail in your work and documentation is not often seen.
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vince1
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your replies, I'm glad to see some followers here!

So go for all new parts collected for this build. I started this engine from my old 2074c which served me well for over 18000 miles.

The only parts kept from my 2074 are the case, oil pump, crank, flywheel, clutch, damper pulley, rods Scat chromoly heads studs and CB breather box , exhaust and ignition, all other parts are new.

So let’s go to detail them in the order I received those.

First of all, magnum straight cut cam gears, best quality as CE are randomly available.

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Torsten Pieper 56g tool steel lifters

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Followed by some nice Rocky Jenning lifter bores sleeves.

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Most awaited box from States ! It contains all my new valve train parts except my pushrods as I’ll have to make my valve train geometry to order them custom cut.

So here is my order from Steve and Greg Tims containing my heads, FK44 cam, CB Dellorto Jets doctors, CB racemaster valves, CB lightweight wrist pins, and a Summit order containing all my Comp Cam hardware and two oil filters.

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Bugpack #1038 manifolds match ported by Greg Tims.

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Nice straight shot!

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CB racemaster valves which are interesting for my beehive springs setup. I needed longer valves with a single groove with an 8 mm stem to go with my heads. But as those have an 8 mm stem, they have a 5/16” tip which offered me more choice for valve locks and retainers in US cars catalogs.

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Comp Cams valve locks suited for my valves no need to trim them as with vw ones they don’t touch each other…

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Comp cams Ti retainers look how they are smaller than a std VW one :

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Comp Cams Caps, with tight fit on valves, better product than what we can find on VW market

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All fit together, it was a big stress for me as I don’t feel very good with US units !

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Comp cam beehive springs, they look nice with a very fine grain

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Now my heads, Steve tims stage 2 based on China Die cast castings, which benefit of 12 mm plugs and very clean and large air passages.

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Hum nice !

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Came uncut for dual springs as I’ll cut them to my springs size.

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Nice ports !

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And clean casting !

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Scat valve covers

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Some small accessories … 11/32” dowels, 15mm head nuts for my case, OEM balanced generator pulley, fittings…

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Dellorto carbs rebuild kits and new shaft rings.

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Some others bits like those 15 mm head nuts to tighten my rockers arms.

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2 Clemex cam bearing kits to make one dual thrust kit.

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Clevite 77 rods bearings.

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Oil drain to sump.

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Berg oil pump cover, freshly reground.

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A pair of 48DRLA bought here on The Samba, they’ll be completely overhauled.

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Awesome powdercoat venturi ring.

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Some tools shims and fasteners…

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KS NOS steelbacked bearings with another NOS center bearing to put behind cam gear.

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A small box from aircooled.net containing Deves rings and Total Seal Quick seat compound.

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Some riffle cleaners to clean my oil galleys.

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Some lube !

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Some coating!

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New AA pistons and liners.

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with berg clips ...

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A nice custom breather box from Travis L bought here on The Samba.

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Nice welds!

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Oil suction kit and other bits…

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Scat thin sump :

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Jaycee Mag sump plate.

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A 600 grit Flex hone to finish my liners, with flex hone oil.

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CNC 38mm chokes for my carbs :

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Another small box of CB stuff.

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So now we have a good bunch of parts, let’s go to have a good prep on them!
_________________
my French blog http://panelvan.skynetblogs.be/

Click here for my full pix detailed 2165 engine build with beehive valvetrain.

Sorry for my poor English, I'm a French guy ... Wink
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esde
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

now you're just showing off! Wink
That will be a very nice build. When you pay for international shipping I guess it pays to order everything in one shot, eh? I'm eager to see the valves and springs assembled into the heads. How do those compare to Bugpack or CB duals?
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vince1
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For shipping, it depends on the size of the box, for small package, I pay about $15 by USPS, with the $/€ rate, it's very interesting.

For larger packages, I go with Vintage Autohaus in France, it's a cool company leaded by two good friends K-Rot and T-Fabs. Fabs is based in California (DKP member) and can collect parts for us then put them in containers to France. It take some time, but when you are not in a hurry, it's cheap.

http://www.vintageautohaus.com/
http://vintage-autohaus.skynetblogs.be/

For the springs, you'll see them installed later Wink

Spring rates are similar to some light duals, but with their beehive shape and the ultra light valve train, they can handle RPMs without the stress of a heavy valve train, resulting in less noise, less wear and more power !

Here are the specs (click on pic to see it bigger)

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_________________
my French blog http://panelvan.skynetblogs.be/

Click here for my full pix detailed 2165 engine build with beehive valvetrain.

Sorry for my poor English, I'm a French guy ... Wink
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MURZI
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you like the cam?? Torquey huh??
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vince1
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep Murzi this is a cool cam, I wonder how would it be on a light beetle through Wink

So first big part of the build, case prep!

I started by measuring it, why make all mods on a dead case? After checking main and cam bore, I starter unplugging all oil galleys and tapped them to 3/8” NPT, ¼” NPT and 1/8” NPT plugs, pretty basic but it take some time and I prefer having opened oil galleys before putting mag chips in.

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After that it was time to put my crank and rods in to make some room. I like to do this by hand so I can remove just what I have to remove. Why have a case stocker cleared for a 84 crank when you only put a 78 crank in it?

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After my crank was rotating freely it was time to work on breathing system. Here it is raw … and finally sanded with 80 grit paper.

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And finally sanded with 80 grit paper, about 20 hours prep at this stage.

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Next is the oil evacuation at cam gears housing that needed some massaging.

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The Brazil crappy oil pick up tube is changed for a German one, oil sump extension is welded on, and I cut some holes to help oil drain.

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Next was some other mods to help a good breathing, , made some pockets around #2 and #3 bearing saddles, raw …

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Sanded

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On this pic you can see it on #3 saddle.

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Then I added a 3/8” fitting at #3 cylinder.

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Cleared for #3 rod…

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Next thing was to machine the case for 15 head nuts and washers …

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And let’s go for all bob hoover mods, cam bearing saddles groove are enlarged by hand…

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And another oil galley is drilled on the case following this HVX mod:

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Had to measure were the oil galley is, because with some cases you can drill trough like that… yikesss

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So go for some careful measures…

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it’s ok so let’s go…

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Nice!

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Next was to put another bearing pin on #3 saddle to put a second “center bearing” behind cam gear, has it is easier for maintenance…

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I use an old main bearing with dowel pin hole drilled.

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Case is closed and bearing are aligned…

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and go for it!

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Last thing was to press in Rocky sleeves, so I had to make some tooling to hold the case on the milling table, and made some lifter bore centering bars, mad this mod with my friend Eddy who owns a small milling machine as I was in vacations with no access to “my” machines at the time.

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two big plastic case supports…

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Centering bars

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Now at Eddy’s house!
First we drilled lifters bores with a 22 mm drill bit, then reamed them with a 7/8” reamer.

Centering

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Reaming

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Dead case Smile

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now time to put the case in the family oven Wink while sleeves are in the freezer.

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Sleeves installed, oil galley cleaned with a long drill bit,

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Now time to ream them to 19 mm.

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finished mod, looks nice !

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Rocky sleeves assure permanent oiling around lifters so permanent oiling to rockers like we want with Bob Hoover mod.

Las thing about the case is that after first mockup, pistons were bottoming the case as it was previously bored for 92 pistons. As I went from 92 TW to 94 pistons during the build, I gave it to a friend who has a berg cutter and we milled the case to clear 94 mm pistons.

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After this last machining, the case had to be cleaned another time, so go for the dishwasher and to a hot tanking, look at how surfaces came uniformly oxidized like they were cast as is!

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On that pic, you can clearly see air passages done on top of #2 and #3 bearing saddles. Black lines on #1 saddle are only some pencil marks, I'll explain you when I'll detail bearing prep.

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Case is now ready to abuse after about 50 hours work on it!

Please don’t hesitate to correct my spelling or technical terms, I’ll edit my post accordingly !
It would be easier to me to speak to you in French Laughing Laughing
_________________
my French blog http://panelvan.skynetblogs.be/

Click here for my full pix detailed 2165 engine build with beehive valvetrain.

Sorry for my poor English, I'm a French guy ... Wink


Last edited by vince1 on Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:17 pm; edited 3 times in total
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esde
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vince1 wrote:

Had to measure were the oil galley is, because with some cases you can drill trough like that… yikesss

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Please tell me that's not a picture of your own mistake! First time I did that I was nervous as hell. Second time I was pretty confident, third time I almost went right through the case as it was cast a bit different than the first two! Lucky I caught myself at the last minute..
Are you going to weld the sump tube on, or are you confident enough with the clamp? I haven't done mine yet as I don't have the sump. I've been wondering if it matters enough to do it now and weld it, or maybe just the clamp as that's what I've always used successfully.
The extra pin you installed for the center bearing, can you elaborate on where/ why? My stock cases have always had a pin in both case halves, I must be missing something.. I'll get a coffee and think about this some more.
Very nice play by play on the lifter sleeves. The bars and reamers are on my christmas list so I can do this to my next case..
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ALB
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering about that as well.
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vince1
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No that pic is from internet Wink

Sump tube is welded on my oil pick up tube, the clamp was for the berg cow magnet, I finally don't use it as I have the Jaycee Magnetic sump plate and oil suction kit, I think it's enough insurance.

For the dowel pin, it's not on the center bearing saddle, it's on the third one to put another split bearing behind cam gears an not the one piece regular bearing.

You can see it in this pic, now I have a dowel pin on #2 & #3 on 1/2 side case.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


With that mod, during future tear downs, I wont have to remove dist and cam gear to change bearings.

That's also why you see 2 center bearings on my main bearings picture posted above.
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Last edited by vince1 on Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:09 pm; edited 3 times in total
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fivelugshortaxle
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow....just wow. I don't think I'll ever.have the.time to devote.to do anything near this.good.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I send my case to you for some prep work? Very Happy JK
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vince1
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To go along with the case, here is the Scat Sump,

Not much work needed as mounting surfaces are ground flat after checking with a dial indicator. However, I didn't like the way Scat wants you to install their deep sump by directly screwing it in the soft mag case.

I decided to use a "stock like" installation with studs & nuts, so I searched some nuts in M6 size with an allen socket in them. Found those Yamaha exhaust nuts.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As their flared base was too large for my sump, they went on the lathe and now look like CB 8mm allen exhaust nuts.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I then drilled the sump so I could pass trough with a 6mm allen wrench

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Scat should provide their sumps with similar nuts !

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next the sump went on the mill to be surfaced then drilled for a 3/8" NPT fitting to receive the excessive oil flow from 3/4 valve cover.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After that, it has been thoroughly cleaned and hot tanked, then studs were loctited.... Ready for use too !

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now the "box" is completely ready, let's go for internal parts Wink
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Click here for my full pix detailed 2165 engine build with beehive valvetrain.

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esde
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vince, nice work with the Scat sump, you've found a solution to the #1 complaint about them: the mounting. Out of curiosity, what is the total thickness of that sump, and is it the 1.5 or 2 quart model? I have a few E##I sumps and they hang down almost a full 3", too much for a lowered street car
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vince you do awesome work! Are you using a drill press or a mill for this work? I'd love to see some more on that turbo 2007.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gene Berg oil sump comes with all the correct mounting hardware and is truly a bolt on item. It is well worth the extra cost they charge.

My biggest worry would be the vent fitting you put on top of the case. The case is very thin and not deep enough to support the fitting. I would put JB Weld around the case and fitting after you fit all the cooling tin and are sure it is located where it will stay.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bravo impressive work :0)

The only thing I may have done differently is to go with ACN Squishy pistons, if you where planning on hauling any heavy loads… it is the only solution I have come up with that may avoid the heads 45-50 HP limit for continuous use, due to the heads heat dissipation issues (such as would be needed when climbing steep hills or exceeding 80MPH on the freeway for long periods) most likely not problems you are concerned with. The ACN Squishy pistons have been reported to run the heads almost too cool even under heavy use

Look forwards to seeing more of your work!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

esde wrote:
Out of curiosity, what is the total thickness of that sump, and is it the 1.5 or 2 quart model?


This is the 1.5qt model, I ran CB model too and I prefer the Scat one with it's stock drain plate. Scat is approximately .2" thicker that's nothing...

GodJockey wrote:

Vince you do awesome work! Are you using a drill press or a mill for this work? I'd love to see some more on that turbo 2007.


I use mills, lathes and also CNC mills & lathe. I'm a CNC turning and milling teacher so I have full access to them at school.
For the turbo 2007, you'll see it here, but in French sorry : http://panelvan.skynetblogs.be/archives/category/2007-turbo/index-1.html go bottom of the page then scroll up then go in page 1

vwracerdave wrote:
The Gene Berg oil sump comes with all the correct mounting hardware and is truly a bolt on item. It is well worth the extra cost they charge.

My biggest worry would be the vent fitting you put on top of the case. The case is very thin and not deep enough to support the fitting. I would put JB Weld around the case and fitting after you fit all the cooling tin and are sure it is located where it will stay.


Berg sump are too thick for my application as my bus is pretty lowered.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


No problem for the top fitting I've about .32" meat where it's screwed. I have to do the same thing with way less meat on my #3 manifold for my bus brake servo and never had a problem.
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Click here for my full pix detailed 2165 engine build with beehive valvetrain.

Sorry for my poor English, I'm a French guy ... Wink


Last edited by vince1 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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