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dixoncj
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Joined: June 17, 2004
Posts: 1085
Location: Charleston, SC
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 Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:38 pm Post subject: Weird assed brake issue - Engine Burning Brake Fluid |
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Writing this for a buddy who just spent a ton of dough on a very badass Bostig conversion on his 91 Westy. (he had the job done).
So last week, he pulls out of his house and notices that his brake light is on. He goes a little way up the road and at the stop sign puts on his brakes and a big ol belch of white smoke comes out of his exhaust. He takes van back home. I tell him maybe it was just condensation because it was cold and humid outside - and to check his brake fluid. Sure enough, it's low. I owed this to the fact that the mech probably bled the system and it needed topping off. He did this, drove it a bit and it did fine. Then today, he pulls out of his house and again - big belch of white smoke, brake light comes on and this time brakes go to the floor. Limps van home. No fluid on his driveway - from prior or current brake episode. I might add - his engine is still running perfectly.
WTF?
My hypothesis is that the master cylinder is bad and is leaking fluid into the vacuum booster - and then brake fluid is being pulled into the engine via the vacuum booster and vacum line and the fluid is combusting? My buddy and I would welcome opinions.
Last edited by dixoncj on Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dixoncj
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Joined: June 17, 2004
Posts: 1085
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ThankYouJerry wrote: |
| Bro... The brakes have nothing to do with the engine. White smoke out the tailpipe sounds like a head gasket issue. |
The brakes have nothing to do with the engine until you lose vacuum and your brakes become hard to operate because your booster won't work. And I doubt if it's a head gasket issue since it's a brand new motor that runs perfectly. I'm asking if there's a way for brake fluid to get into the engine via the vacuum system. |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
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Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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If the booster has a leak at the diaphragm, the vacuum from the engine can draw the brake fluid right out past the shaft seals In the master cylinder and you can definitely see smoke coming out of the tailpipe if this happens. If this is what is happening, I would replace both the booster and the master cylinder at the same time.
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Last edited by Christopher Schimke on Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ThankYouJerry
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Joined: September 01, 2012
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Location: Shakedown Street
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| If the booster has a leak at the diaphragm, the vacuum from the engine can draw the brake fluid right out past the shaft seals and you can definitely see smoke coming out of the tailpipe if this happens. If this is what is happening, I would replace both the booster and the master cylinder at the same time. |
Exactly what I realized after my initial post. Doh!!!
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dixoncj
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Joined: June 17, 2004
Posts: 1085
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ThankYouJerry wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| If the booster has a leak at the diaphragm, the vacuum from the engine can draw the brake fluid right out past the shaft seals and you can definitely see smoke coming out of the tailpipe if this happens. If this is what is happening, I would replace both the booster and the master cylinder at the same time. |
Exactly what I realized after my initial post. Doh!!! |
Thanks Chris. I'll tell my mechanic buddy to give that the first look when he checks my friend's van. |
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Phishman068
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Joined: February 19, 2007
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Location: Pittsburgh PA (ish)
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| This has nothing to due with the brand of the engine...they all produce vacuum for the brake system and will pull fluid from systems with failed seals. |
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Phishman068
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Location: Pittsburgh PA (ish)
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240Gordy
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Joined: May 15, 2008
Posts: 2354
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| This has nothing to due with the brand of the engine...they all produce vacuum for the brake system and will pull fluid from systems with failed seals. |
Yes and since a solution to the problem has likely been found the thread will go into posterity with a misleading title.
Owners and anyone else (a lot of people seem to be making posts on behalf of "friends") doing conversions might remember they are messing with 20-30 year old vehicles where multiple systems are on the verge of failure, and while these failures might seem related, they really are coincidental at best.
This would have happened to any gas burning conversion on this van. Think twice before making the connection in the title. Just the facts, ma'am.
The OP or mods should consider changing the title of the thread.
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Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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insyncro
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| 240Gordy wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| This has nothing to due with the brand of the engine...they all produce vacuum for the brake system and will pull fluid from systems with failed seals. |
Yes and since a solution to the problem has likely been found the thread will go into posterity with a misleading title.
Owners and anyone else (a lot of people seem to be making posts on behalf of "friends") doing conversions might remember they are messing with 20-30 year old vehicles where multiple systems are on the verge of failure, and while these failures might seem related, they really are coincidental at best.
This would have happened to any gas burning conversion on this van. Think twice before making the connection in the title. Just the facts, ma'am.
The OP or mods should consider changing the title of the thread. |
I agree a title change is warranted.
With all conversions I have done...the complete cooling and braking systems are inspected and most replaced at the time of the engine conversion.
I will wait to rework the suspension with some miles on the converted vehicle, but will usually get a call verifying that the owner feels exactly what I have described for them with aging parts and now more power/torque.
The days of just swapping in an engine are done.
The age and lack of constant maintenance, on average with Vanagons, lends to refreshing ALL systems to provide true reliability and driveability, IMHO. |
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Jake de Villiers
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Joined: October 24, 2007
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Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| The age and lack of constant maintenance, on average with Vanagons, lends to refreshing ALL systems to provide true reliability and driveability, IMHO. |
So true - you can't update only ONE of the seventies-designed systems on the vehicle to something from the 21st Century without creating a total imbalance. 
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insyncro
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| The age and lack of constant maintenance, on average with Vanagons, lends to refreshing ALL systems to provide true reliability and driveability, IMHO. |
So true - you can't update only ONE of the seventies-designed systems on the vehicle to something from the 21st Century without creating a total imbalance. |
Life is all about balance, well put.
Most will say it comes down to budget, but the dollars and sense of it are...replace it all at one time and you will get the longest duration out of the whole and keep labor costs to a minimum. |
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240Gordy
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Or simply be careful not to imply causation or correlation when neither applies.
The symptons/problems with the brakes don't appear to have been caused by the conversion or the extra power supplied, they merely manifested themselves at the same time.
This would have happened if the convertee was still running a WBXer,
And the title would have been,
"Weird ass smoke coming from the WBXer"
_________________
Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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Jake de Villiers
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Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5938
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| 240Gordy wrote: |
The symptoms/problems with the brakes don't appear to have been caused by the conversion or the extra power supplied, they merely manifested themselves at the same time.
This would have happened if the convertee was still running a WBX,
And the title would have been,
"Weird ass smoke coming from the WBX" |
Well, I'll agree that the brake light being on doesn't have anything to do with the Zetec, but the converter might have eliminated the one way valve in the booster vacuum line, too.
Too many steps removed from the guy who did the work...
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7.5 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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240Gordy
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Er, which way does the one-way valve work?
The vacuum has suck towards the engine doesn't it?
_________________
Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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Jake de Villiers
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Joined: October 24, 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| 240Gordy wrote: |
Er, which way does the one-way valve work?
The vacuum has suck towards the engine doesn't it? |
"Has to suck", I think you meant but yeah. That white plastic thingy that Bentley calls a "Check valve" on page 47.10
They describe the test procedure thusly:
"- remove valve (arrow) from hose
- blow through valve in direction of arrow (on housing)
* air must pass through valve
- blow through valve in opposite direction
* no air must pass through valve "
Sounds like a one-way valve to me. You learn something new every day.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7.5 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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240Gordy
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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So how would the valve stop brake fluid being sucked into the intake?
_________________
Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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Jake de Villiers
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Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5938
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| 240Gordy wrote: |
| So how would the valve stop brake fluid being sucked into the intake? |
It wouldn't but if it was missing, it might allow too much manifold vacuum at the booster.
I checked it when I did my Subie swap and I kinda remember that it felt like the valve had a restrictor inside.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7.5 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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240Gordy
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Joined: May 15, 2008
Posts: 2354
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Ya whatever.
I wasn't questioning the fact that it was a one-way valve, just wondering how it had any bearing on brake fluid going up the nose of the vanagon, so to speak.
Logically, it would have to open towards the engine, in order for vacuum to be created at the booster. You seem to have confirmed that.
_________________
Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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240Gordy
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Posts: 2354
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Okay I read it again and yes, if no valve, too much vacuum, it could damage the booster, and cause fluid to be drawn through.
_________________
Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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