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2017cc De-Tune for a stock bus
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TinCanFab
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:12 pm    Post subject: 2017cc De-Tune for a stock bus Reply with quote

Hi guys I have a MILD 2017 engine in my bug that I want to install into my very stock 60 Single Cab. My goal is daily driver! I've been looking all morning but haven't found my answers.

-What is the safe RPM limit for an engine with NO deep sump? I have a 1.5 qt one on there, and it always leaks. Hate it. It has a full MSD system so I would like to change the rev limit chip to compensate. My cam's powerband is good to about 5500, but I will NOT be driving it hard. Basically a more powerful version of a stock 1600.

- The engine has a Stage 2 pressure plate. A few years ago I crushed my left knee, so the clutch has got to go, it is so painful to drive that I never drive the car anymore. My truck has a 40hp engine modified for a 200mm stock clutch. I have been driving this for a year and do not have noticable pain using it. What clutch components should I use? Is it even possible a stock clutch could work properly for me? I have the stuff to do a hydraulic conversion, which I started and did not finish because the stock clutch was surprisingly soft.


The 40hp is making a funny noise so it has to come out. What would you guys recommend to make this a nice driver? I built the engine myself and have all the details of it if needed.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 2017cc De-Tune for a stock bus Reply with quote

we need to know the engine specs to recommend the clutch. With no deep sump I'd limit the engine to 4500, but that will even be too high if the oil pump is too big (30mm or larger).

If the sump is leaking it's either a R)*&$)(*#& sump or it's improperly installed.
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TinCanFab
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks John!

CB 78.4 crank
CB 1.5 qt filter sump
CB 5.4" Rods
Engle TCS 10 cam, basically the turbo version of a W110 (in the bug it had a t3 turbo)
CB CNC 044 round port heads 42x 37
Mahle 90 mm pistons B style
1.25 Scat rockers
CB straight cut gears
CB chromoly wedgemated flywheel
26mm Shadeck oil pump
Full flowed
Rotating assembly was balanced by Demello
Dual Weber Italian 40's w/ 32 venturis and initial jet change based off your older posts John, and mharney Cool
Stage 2 Kennedy clutch w/ kush-lock disc

I have rebuild the carbs, set the floats, jetting, and linkage according to your tech advice John. I am impressed! I only tuned each mixture screw by ear so far. I've touched nothing else and it idles perfect at 850-900 RPM. Using my snail sychrometer, I could not see any difference between any cylinder. The guage reads around 5.5 on each barrel. From what I remember, the compression ratio was 7.95:1 and I was running only about 7 lbs of boost. I know busses do not like high compression and the 78 x 90 is a very popular bus engine, so I figured why not install it?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now knowing your combo, I recommend adjusting your compression higher to 8.5-9. You can run higher cr safely with no problems. Along with a heavy flywheel and changing to a sachs kit would probablu be better on your knees. Maybe even a stage 1. Id figure out why your sump is leaking or get a new one.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would get a good sump... .040 head to piston clearance,9:1~9.3 cr,30 mm oil pump&good ext cooler. rejet as needed. stage 1 pp with long arm,good cable&bowden with synthetic greezzee.and or one of those pully systems if it's still to stiff, or stack plate&center force duell friction disc. make sure you get plenty of air to the motor&fan.
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TinCanFab
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I had .040 deck height before adding the copper gaskets that were recommended to me for turbo use. I can remove those and get close to the 8.5 mark. My truck still has reduction gear boxes and increasing the power even more makes me concerned that I will have no choice but to run a stiff clutch..... Not that I don't WANT more power....

BUT being in a bus that has limited top speed and acceleration, I am more than happy with the power that the engine makes already. I'm just looking to make the engine I have that is basically sitting useless into something I can use again. Is anyone around driving a stock split bus with a stroker engine and a stock clutch? I was hoping it could be comparable to how a late bay with a 2 litre would have been in stock form.

I also am a fan of a stock weight flywheel on a daily driver type bus. The engine was balanced with this flywheel though, AND it's been wedgemated... So I don't know if it's possible to put a regular flywheel back on
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to add, my exhaust is a standard type header and single quiet pack muffler, but 1 1/2" size and I'm running the 1 1/2" high flow heater boxes.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep it like it is. Wedge mating is a plus, and isn't cheep.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: 2017cc De-Tune for a stock bus Reply with quote

I am running same size engine in my Micro, but straight axled. I'm only using a OEM bus preasure plate and a Dansk disc. No problems in three years, 115 horse and 140-50 ft lbs at the tire
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of a deep sump I just use a 1/2"-1" deeper mini sump. Pickup tube is extended only slightly and I fasten a "anti-slurp" washer to the end of the tube.

This is just a permanent version of the 1/2" extended sump and small aluminum do-dad kit that they used to sell,which did work a LOT better than nothing, except that the chances of it fitting were slim and there is no drain plug.
http://www.socalautoparts.com/product_info.php/latest-rage-drain-plate-oil-suction-pick-p-13784
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Instead of a deep sump I just use a 1/2"-1" deeper mini sump. Pickup tube is extended only slightly and I fasten a "anti-slurp" washer to the end of the tube.

This is just a permanent version of the 1/2" extended sump and small aluminum do-dad kit that they used to sell,which did work a LOT better than nothing, except that the chances of it fitting were slim and there is no drain plug.
http://www.socalautoparts.com/product_info.php/latest-rage-drain-plate-oil-suction-pick-p-13784


That's a good idea. I put one of these mini sumps on the 40hp, and was thinking about using it on the 2017 instead of the sump. It's been less leaky than the stock drain plate that was on there. I like it :

http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1756

Does this mini sump accomplish the same thing? It kinda seems like it, adding only a tiny bit more capacity, but sucking lower in the stock sump.
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modok
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sump looks sturdy, but the filter is too restrictive.

For the price maybe I will buy one! But please do not use that filter. Just extend the tube a little and put a washer on the end.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roachdub58 wrote:
Thanks John!

CB 78.4 crank
CB 1.5 qt filter sump
CB 5.4" Rods
Engle TCS 10 cam, basically the turbo version of a W110 (in the bug it had a t3 turbo)
CB CNC 044 round port heads 42x 37
Mahle 90 mm pistons B style
1.25 Scat rockers
CB straight cut gears
CB chromoly wedgemated flywheel
26mm Shadeck oil pump
Full flowed
Rotating assembly was balanced by Demello
Dual Weber Italian 40's w/ 32 venturis and initial jet change based off your older posts John, and mharney Cool
Stage 2 Kennedy clutch w/ kush-lock disc

I have rebuild the carbs, set the floats, jetting, and linkage according to your tech advice John. I am impressed! I only tuned each mixture screw by ear so far. I've touched nothing else and it idles perfect at 850-900 RPM. Using my snail sychrometer, I could not see any difference between any cylinder. The guage reads around 5.5 on each barrel. From what I remember, the compression ratio was 7.95:1 and I was running only about 7 lbs of boost. I know busses do not like high compression and the 78 x 90 is a very popular bus engine, so I figured why not install it?

If that sump is leaking, you have done an improper job installing it. it is one of the best on the market. but of course have to be done right. (i think its a rather often seen problem though. why i do not really know, as i do not have the problem myself.)
If the cam is on 112 LC, its not really suitable for non turbo engines, as the timing is too late so to speak. (At least I dont like it... On 108 LC it has potential on a NA engine.)
Loose the 1,25īs and install stock rockers if you want lower end torque. Ditto with the straight cuts for a street engine.
Bump the CR to the stage of fuel you will be running.
The cheapo 11" muffler will be OK for the engine and power window. But get a better muffler for it, or build it yourself.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:41 am    Post subject: De tune Reply with quote

Just a little note here on deep sumps leaking. The sumps can be properly installed and be a good sump also and will leak if you use the sump to support the engine on your jack when you install the engine in the vehicle. There are only 6 little studs that hold the sump on the bottom of the engine and if the engine is a little off center on installation on the jack it can over stress the sealing area and break the seal so it will always "weep" oil. I have seen the holes where the little studs go through the mounting plate crack when the short stock studs are used and the metal is very thin in that area.
I have a special holder that the engine sits on that fits my jack so I never use the add on sump to support the engine
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: De tune Reply with quote

If the engine is not boosted a stock bus pressure plate and a Daikin disc will probably do ok. A Stage 2 KEP is certainly overkill, no more than a Stage 1 is needed for sure. I'd try the bus PP to see if it holds, it will certainly be easier on the left leg!
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TinCanFab
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK thanks for the suggestions guys. Its been over 10 years since I've touched the sump. I'll take it off and inspect and maybe give it another shot.

I just put that same pressure plate on the 40hp engine John said to try. So I'll try that with a solid disk on the 2 litre. I plan on putting in a 4.12 trans center section in the future. If I don't like the grip of the clutch I change it to a stage 1 pressure plate with the "long" throwout arm while I'm at it. I think it would be ok on my knee. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stock clutch is fine. I put that in all my daily driver stuff. Unless you are racing it wont ever slip.

Cam needs to be changed and compression set right.

This engine IS detuned, because 95% of aircooled people set compression wrong.
So id imagine even with turbo cam it has way too low of compression.

So it is gutless/detuned as it stands.

Take care of that knee. Has to last you a lifetime
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