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photogdave
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Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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 Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:38 pm Post subject: Strange Syncro Carbon Canister Routing |
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During a recent off-roading trip we discovered my charcoal canister was full of gas and my tank wasn't venting.
I removed the canister and discovered that the hose coming from the bottom was actually plugged back in at the top! So the smaller diameter vent line from the tank was normal but the line from the bottom that is supposed to either go to atmosphere or air cleaner was routed back into the canister, where normally the line goes to the distributer (according to Bentley).
I've read all the post I could on EVAP routing and it sounds like there are many variations...
I removed the canister, took the hose that had been running from the bottom to the top and plugged it into the vent line, then curled it up and zip-tied it behind the shock tower. So now the fuel tank line is venting straight to outside. Does this seem okay?
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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There should be hole in the frame right below & foward a little the vent hose should slide right into.
Where is the cannister valve hooked to?
It should be hooked to the top of the cannister .
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Dave!
The lower hose is indeed routed to atmosphere. It comes out of the bottom of the canister, loops upward toward the top of the canister and just above the canister itself the hose enters the side of that rectangular floor reinforcement. The small hose on the top of the canister goes to the tank vent line and large hose on the top of the canister goes to the purge valve in the engine compartment. In other words, there are three hoses attached to the canister.
Are you sure that you didn't mistake the large hose going to the purge valve for the vent hose? They are both the same size and are routed right next to each other behind that floor reinforcement and it would be easy to confuse one for the other since it from the outside looking in, it sort of looks like the vent hose loops up and back into the top of the canister, when in fact the vent hose keeps going past the top of the canister and on into the side of the floor reinforcement.
If in fact someone did loop the lower vent hose up to the top of the canister, then that would sure explain why your tank shriveled up on that trail. The tank was simply not venting at all...or very little, so the tank was simply being sucked into itself until it just couldn't pull any more fuel out. A semi-empty tank could run for quite while like this, but since we had just filled up, there just wasn't any air space for the tank to collapse in to. I'm surprised that it ran as long as it did prior that incident.
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photogdave
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Joined: April 05, 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
There should be hole in the frame right below & foward a little the vent hose should slide right into.
Where is the cannister valve hooked to?
It should be hooked to the top of the cannister . |
No canister valve at all! the line ran straight back into the top of the canister. Nothing else down there.
It's a Canadian spec FWIW.
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photogdave
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Joined: April 05, 2004
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Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Hey Dave!
The lower hose is indeed routed to atmosphere. It comes out of the bottom of the canister, loops upward toward the top of the canister and just above the canister itself the hose enters the side of that rectangular floor reinforcement. The small hose on the top of the canister goes to the tank vent line and large hose on the top of the canister goes to the purge valve in the engine compartment. In other words, there are three hoses attached to the canister.
Are you sure that you didn't mistake the large hose going to the purge valve for the vent hose? They are both the same size and are routed right next to each other behind that floor reinforcement and it would be easy to confuse one for the other since it from the outside looking in, it sort of looks like the vent hose loops up and back into the top of the canister, when in fact the vent hose keeps going past the top of the canister and on into the side of the floor reinforcement.
If in fact someone did loop the lower vent hose up to the top of the canister, then that would sure explain why your tank shriveled up on that trail. The tank was simply not venting at all...or very little, so the tank was simply being sucked into itself until it just couldn't pull any more fuel out. A semi-empty tank could run for quite while like this, but since we had just filled up, there just wasn't any air space for the tank to collapse in to. I'm surprised that it ran as long as it did prior that incident. |
Hey Christopher! Yep, I didn't get them mixed up. I figured there should be three hoses, which is why I was so surprised that when I pulled the canister off the vent line there was just one big hose going from top to bottom!
This could also explain why I've always had problems filling the tank.
So now the tank is venting straight into the outside. Where is the purge valve in the engine compartment. If anyone has a photo they can post that would help!
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ng
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Joined: October 01, 2011
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Location: Edmonton, AB
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Dave
It is exactly as Christopher describes it above on my 86 Syncro (also a Canadian van). Attached are a couple of pictures, the first showing the canister, the second where the hose from the top comes out in the upper right of the engine bay and would then attach to the vacuum system via the small cone shaped canister that sits behind the air filter.
Hopefully this helps. I also think the tank fill rate might be more related to the hose that runs back to the filler beside the fill pipe.
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photogdave
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ng wrote: |
Hi Dave
It is exactly as Christopher describes it above on my 86 Syncro (also a Canadian van). Attached are a couple of pictures, the first showing the canister, the second where the hose from the top comes out in the upper right of the engine bay and would then attach to the vacuum system via the small cone shaped canister that sits behind the air filter.
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Thanks! That was really helpful. So I found that line from the vacuum system - it was just hanging loose by the fuel filter.
Until I can find a new canister should I just leave it, plug it or...?
Some bits of charcoal and some gas came out of the canister when I removed it. I can still hear some inside when I shake it, so maybe it's still useable?
Thanks!
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Canadian vehicles don't have to meet any emissions standards?
I know that without that valve your free wheeling gas fumes into the clean Canadian air.
Where's the purple plastic line going to off of the TB?
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FrankenSubySyncro
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:59 am Post subject: |
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The hose on the bottom did go to the top of the frame rail like Chris described before your tank built up the vacuum. I pulled the hose out so it could drain the gas out of the canister. Then I removed the top hose from the canister so it could vent properly and you could continue on. You may have connected the bottom hose to the top connection by mistake later on.
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insyncro
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| Labeling stuff or marking with a paint pen is really nice when you go to reassemble. |
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denwood
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photogdave
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| FrankenSubySyncro wrote: |
| The hose on the bottom did go to the top of the frame rail like Chris described before your tank built up the vacuum. I pulled the hose out so it could drain the gas out of the canister. Then I removed the top hose from the canister so it could vent properly and you could continue on. You may have connected the bottom hose to the top connection by mistake later on. |
Entirely possible!  
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FrankenSubySyncro
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:01 am Post subject: |
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This was the weirdest thing, we were driving up a backcountry trail near Cle Elum, WA and Dave's syncro quit running right in the middle of the trail. His gas tank pressurized somehow and the engine wouldn't restart. I thought if we opened the gas cap it would depressurize. When we did that lots of gas started squirting out the filler neck. I was really stumped and still can't figure out exactly why it happened. My guess is that his roll over vent valves on the top of the gas tank are plugged and didn't vent properly. Also gas was coming out the the bottom hose of the charcoal canister. The hose went into the frame rail above the canister so I removed it from the frame rail hoping the gas would drain out and vent properly. That didn't quite work so I removed the bigger of the top two hoses on the canister and gas drained out the top hose. I figured if I left the top hose off the canister that it would vent any gas or fumes. After I removed the top hose his van started up and we continued up the trail and didn't have any more stalling issues. I knew this wouldn't be a permanent fix but it was a good trail repair and there was no way a tow truck would come up where we were. Also Jahbah (Dustin) was having a problem with gas leaking out the bottom hose of the canister but no stalling. My guess would be the rollover vent valves but Jahbah said he replaced his when he did the syncro conversion.
Dave you should reconnect the top hose to the canister and see if it pressurizes again. If it does, as I see it you have two options 1 drop the engine, trans, and gas tank then replace the vent valves. Or 2 remove the top hose of the canister and maybe put a small crankcase breather filter on the end of the hose to keep the dust out and call it good. The canister should only have fumes in it not liquid gas. A new canister will not stop gas from getting in it.
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photogdave
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| FrankenSubySyncro wrote: |
Dave you should reconnect the top hose to the canister and see if it pressurizes again. If it does, as I see it you have two options 1 drop the engine, trans, and gas tank then replace the vent valves. Or 2 remove the top hose of the canister and maybe put a small crankcase breather filter on the end of the hose to keep the dust out and call it good. The canister should only have fumes in it not liquid gas. A new canister will not stop gas from getting in it. |
Will try this today. Also might try your earlier suggestion of blowing air through the vent line to maybe open the rollover valves if they are stuck. I'll try a bicycle pump or maybe my little compressor.
If I can get air moving through the canister I may put it back on but could I also run a hose from the vent line back to the purge valve?
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photogdave
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Okay...I was able to push air through the canister, and I could hear stuff moving around as I shook it, so I concluded it's not plugged and still useable.
I tried blowing air through the tank vent line to possibly open the rollover valves, but when I took the gas cap off air still wooshed out.
I reconnected the canister but wasn't quite sure about the fame hole that bottom hose is supposed to pass through.
I noticed this rubber nipple that appears to pass through firewall to the engine bay:
So I attached the hose there. Is this correct?
I looked for a hole above the canister but could't see anything.
Thanks!
edit: Also found this diagram which seems to route the bottom hose back to the air filter:
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photogdave
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SyncroJack
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Hey Dave, I checked out how my van's hose routing goes, hope this might help. Mainly the one on the bottom gets tucked in the frame channel. That's where yours was before we pulled it out on the trail to drain your canister. Your photo has it on that extra nipple? (there's a joke there somewhere  ) Is that extra nipple maybe part of your onboard heater system?
-Jack
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Strange Syncro Carbon Canister Routing |
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| Thank you for posting up this picture. I'm migrating the syncro driveline to a 2wd and remembered pulling the bottom hose out of the syncro chassis, but could not recall exactly where it came out. Mark |
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