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Factory A/C Compressor: Is it any good? Upgrade Options?
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Factory A/C Compressor: Is it any good? Upgrade Options? Reply with quote

As the title suggests,

How do we test, examine, a vintage Sanden 508 Compressor to determine if it is worthy For reuse or if it should be tossed?

If it is worthy of Reuse........ Do we flush it like we are flushing hoses, evaporators and Condensers?

If we can flush it, How do we flush it? Pour in brake line antifreeze and rotate unit while filled? (Obviously removed and on a bench)

Once flushed, what steps should be immediately taken to avoid damage? Add Mineral oil?

What can we screw up by flushing it?

Are shaft seals readily available?
Should we bother replacing them if they are?

If it is no good........ Should we........
Get a Genuine Sanden at almost $400?
Run a Chinese knock off at $200?
Upgrade to the 709?

Opinions?
Experiences?
Go hire a professional AC guy! Wink yeah...... That ain't happening.

Thanks for any insight!

BTW this should be a good companion for the AC system upgrade thread.......
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=583818&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can swap the rear cover to a new compressor. That should give you many more options vs finding one suited to the Vanagon. The shaft seal is a pain in the butt to change. If you carefully open the dryer you might get an idea of if the compressor was failing. If I were going through this fire drill, I'd probably not try to reuse the old compressor.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well.......

Flushing may not be a good thing..........
http://www.sanden.com/productlibrary/manuals/sd_service_guide_rev_2.pdf

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
You can swap the rear cover to a new compressor. That should give you many more options vs finding one suited to the Vanagon. The shaft seal is a pain in the butt to change. If you carefully open the dryer you might get an idea of if the compressor was failing. If I were going through this fire drill, I'd probably not try to reuse the old compressor.


Yeah....... I'm leaning heavily in that direction....... 29 years.......
Plus I worry too much......

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pour 1/2 oz of Ester oil in it and spin it to lubricate the internals. Put it in a vise and while someone else is spinning the clutch, put your fingers across the inlet and outlet ports. If it feels like good vacuum and pressure, pour the oil out and see if its fairly clean. Cut open the dryer as mentioned and look for metallic debris. If you feel that these inspections pass, run it.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agonized with the same decision regarding my compressor. The 508 has different hose fitting angles as opposed to the 709 per my AC mechanic. Since I was replacing all my hoses, dryer and condenser I opted to go for the 709 and glad I did. My system works much better even though I use 134a. I also replaced the expansion valve. I also opted for barrier hose since the 134a can permeate the old style hose. Now I hear there is a new refrigerant on the horizon in the US which is hydrocarbon based like RedTek.

Next up Ceramic window tint.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love my ceramic tint. Even had the windshield done ,.shhhhh

You are on the right path replacing the known old maintenece items and if there is a better compressor as mentioned, do it when you have the lines done. No brainer
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought from Nostalgic Air about 3 years ago a 709 compressor and had them install a 509 style rear plate, so it fit my WBX 1.9l, yet I had the later 7 cylinder compressor. Your 509 plate will not install on a 709 compressor, it has to be the right model, I'm simply describing the style, the hoses out the rear, of the same size.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, my problem with the compressors on Nostalgic Air's site is that they seem to all be Chinese knock offs of the Sanden compressor.

This bothers me...... There are few Chinese items that I've been happy to have.

If I'm dropping $200 on a knockoff....... I'm going the extra $100 for a real Sanden!

I'm not risking a new system on a questionable pump.

The modern replacement for the 709 with a rear exit is the Sanden SD7H15 8227 compressor. I've found it new for $295.
It has the KG Cylinder head with screw fittings out the rear (Stacked, not side by side), the Ear mounting and the A2 double groove pulley 132mm

My question, is there space for stacked fittings?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine worked fine, sold if off with the motor last year when I did my conversion.
Are you sure your new Sanden is really a Sanden?
Nostalgic air only sells the Chineese knock offs and claims to have good results. Their entire company would likely fail if their compressors were short lived.

Just be sure of the threaded fittings, there are two types, if I recall correct the threads are 1"-24 for both the high and low.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So......

In my search for a replacement Compressor ....... the choices are dizzying!

Chinese knock offs of Sanden ....... Affordable...... But.......

Real Sanden compressors, what a dizzying array! A lot of the selection comes down to clutch/pulley design and more importantly head outlet design.

Then you decide on a compressor family and a sub family number...... Hard to find and sales people that you talk to are pushing you into different models that they stock, spouting part numbers and prices but no performance data.
Look up their numbers for data? No can find........

And then upsizing.......

Should I graduate to What has been known as a 709? Same mounting at the 508 but two extra pistons and increased fluid movement capacity.

Moving refrigerant at an increased pace....... What do you gain if anything?
Do you overwhelm your condenser? Your expansion valve? Your Evaporator?
Is it like over sizing your home AC system? Too much of a good thing?

What is the original pumping rate of the stock 508 U9279?

I can't find that anywhere but I do find that the new SD5H14 pumps 138cc per revolution and the Sanden book says that this model is the replacement in function and size for the 508. So the 508 pumped 138cc per revolution? If so I Sure don't want to step down in capacity at all ......... but should I step up to SD7H15 which pumps 154cc per revolution and is stated to replace the 709 compressor in size and function.

Is the difference between 154cc and 138cc really all that important?
(Yes, the smart mouths here will say the difference is 16cc's)

If I increase the Condenser size....... Should I increase the Compressor size? But I'm NOT increasing the Evaporator size!
How will that all work together?

Oh my, oh my, oh my.........

Any thoughts.......
Anyone on here really this smart and knows the answers?

Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or........

I've got the AC tool kit............
Save a lot of $$'s by just refreshing......

http://www.max-ac.com/SD507-47-SD507A2-47-SD508-47-SD510_c_22618.html


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just did this about 2 months ago. replaced all hoses with barrier hoses locally about $200. upgraded condenser from nostalgic air. stock evaporator. new genuine sanden 508. r134a conversion. new dryer. blows cold. this is on a 1985 1.9 westy. I'm in sw florida and it was around 87 degrees and I got complaints from kids in the back saying its too cold....I only had it on "1". don't over think it.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the Chinese knock-off compressors, like almost everything that can be sourced in China, there are good suppliers and not-so-good suppliers. I believe that larger companies like Nostalgic AC Products, who offer a warranty on their Chinese-sourced parts, have done their homework and sussed out the good suppliers.

On thing to remember - - these Sanden compressors have exceptionally robust and simple design. They are the AK47's of the auto AC world - - not the best performance or the best efficiency, but tough as nails and easy to build, rebuild, and manufacture. That's why a Chinese knock off Sanden is not as likely to bring grief as would a complicated variable-output design like the Zexel or some of the newer Denso units.

If you do want to re-use your old compressor and want to "flush" it out, you would not use an AC flush fluid. Instead, you drain the existing oil out and fill with the new oil, rotate the pump a few revolutions, drain, and repeat until you get only clean, clear oil. This will remove most of the mineral oil that the factory installed. Make sure the oil and compressor are room temp or warmer to maximize drainage.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The parts yard i've delt with 4 yrs & have used their advise at times, one was if u r changing compressor connections anyways use a Toyota one, they mfg their own (at the time ) and rarely sell one, other brands vary by mfg, did say which was worse. I have one, replaced old about 5-6 yrs ago, tested yesterday, ok. Picked another one as i'm adding ac to the westy, gonna do it a bit different, adding a rear unit from a dual system mazda suv, owned one , gutsey unit, my 2cts. Will have a front system too.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just refurbish your current one? Its not rocket science and then you will know it is clean and correct.
Keep in mind: ANYTIME you crack open the system/ lines, it is correct practice to replace the receiver/ dryer. It has a filter in it and should be replaced once exposed to moisture in the air.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So...... My 1986 vintage Sanden 508......
Pretty? .......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As part of the repair and reuse or replace I thought it best to open it and see what I'm dealing with here.......

Tools are good! To not damage the clutch there is a tool kit made for multiple applications. For the Sanden you only need the items along the bottom of this photo...... Three 6mm bolts, large bolt to screw into pulling plate above it....... Wouldn't be hard to utilize something already in the shop or make up a simple puller from a chunk of scrap steel and some hardware......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Clutch puller assembled on clutch plate........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here it is separated....... And a close up of the corrosion....... I LOVE the Northeasts love of deicers! ........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the inner portion of the magnetic clutch. Need to remove the inner snap ring so I can pull off this assembly.......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used a standard 3 arm puller CAREFULLY so as not to distort the pulley......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here it is after the inner pulley was pulled. You Can see the magnet coil, the insulation is badly cracked which will allow moisture in.
As the pulley came off it caught on the snap ring groove and broke a bit off of it thus throwing the concept of reuse into serious question! .....
Cracked part by screw driver tip....... Notice cracks in insulation too! .....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On the back side, loosen the rear cover plate to remove the interior check valve plate........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lifted the back cover off..... Simple design......
Exterior is the Suction side..... Center portion is the pressurized output.
This is why you can rotate a cover to align the ports as needed thus keeping the oil fill hole up.......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Under the cover is this greasy mess. Stuck in the nooks and crannies of this gasket is black gooey grease like substance! See thise bubbles in the gasket? They are packed full of grease! NO GREASE BELONGS IN THIS PUMP!!!!! The grease is simply old congealed mineral oil from the old R12 Freon days.
I'm guessing this goo will be found in every component is this AC system! ........ The five point star is the check valve (reed type valves) for the exhaust or pressure ports of the pump.
The five holes along the outer edge are the intake ports.......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the same plate flipped over, it didn't want to come off, I had to convince it to come by doing as the manual suggests and using a very thin scraper blade worked under the plate..... Worked under as in I tapped it under the plate with a hammer!
The intricate five pointed star are the reed valves controlling the intake of the cooling gas/liquid.........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This compressor is a 508.... Five pistons, the 709 has...... Wait for it....... SEVEN pistons!
Here are the pistons in various stages of travel, intake to compression.
From sitting unused, that cylinder you see in the lower right with the brown goo? Not a good thing, not sure how or if that affects that cylinders rings chance of sealing........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now to pull off the the magnetic coil and open up the crankshaft end!

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh..... I couldn't wait!!!!

Just pulled the crankshaft cover off and separated the two pieces.........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ewww! Grease! Stinky smelly grease!

Anyway here is the Crank cover end. When the magnetic clutch engages it spins the input shaft that in turn spins this tilted disc, the tilted disc in turn pushes each piston up and down creating coolant pressure........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The spinning input disc rides on two of these flat roller bearings thus pushing a flat plate to which the pistons are connected.........
Interesting side note...... See that pipe in the photo? This pipe is located on the same side that the oil fill plug is located on. This pipe is a vent into the low pressure intake side of the gas check valve plate. This vents and equalizes the crank case pressure. The pressure in the crank case equals the pressure on the low side of the system.
If you rotate your compressor in the mount, i'd keep this pipe in mind ..... I reckon that the best venting happens when that pipe is UP. If you need to rotate your compressor for pipe connections, you are probably better served to remove the rear cover plate and rotate that leaving the fill hole always on top when the compressor is mounted on the engine.......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here are the pistons pulled out of the crankcase........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The piston plate rotates on a ball bearing set in a single planetary gear which keeps the entire assembly centered and aligned.
By engaging in this planetary gear, the pistons remain centered in their bore and don't try to walk off to the side!
Ingenious!!!!! ..........
That shaft shown lying off to the left is keyed into the crankcase so it does not rotate. This gear system is only for piston alignment in the bore! ........ That big ball sets in the center of the gear........ Each piston connecting rod is fastened to the plate by a ball joint.......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As I found in the reed valves...... Thick gooey grease! No Grease belongs in here! This is lubricated by mineral oil! .......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And now the final death blow to rebuilding this compressor. It rotated with difficulty when assembled. The gooey piston could cause that but the rotation had a roughness to it....... Once dissassembled and I put the input shaft back in the bore..... Difficult rough rotation!

The culprit?
This main input shaft roller bearing! ........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I am afraid this unit is toast people.
Simply not worth the expense to repair! Crying or Very sad

After seeing inside this old compressor which was never open to the environment until today........

I Would NOT reuse any 30 year old AC compressor.

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can really see why Sanden says to NOT flush a compressor! There is no way you would ever get the solvent out and what kind of damage would it leave in its wake?

Anyway........
Bottom line,

I could have run this compressor......

It would have worked compressing my gas....... For awhile.

That caged roller bearing would get worse and worse, produce input shaft wobble which would in turn take out the front shaft seal letting my gas escape!

But in reality, this may be exactly why there was no R12 in the system?

That gooey mineral oil would work itself through the system to my new condenser, my new Rec/Drier, my new Expansion valve and my squeaky clean evaporator! This would put me right back at square 1!

There is also no way that I could have completely removed that mineral oil residue from the compressor so any PAG oil introduced would have really gummed up the works!
(I know for a fact that my PO NEVER switched to 134a)

Yes, I could rebuild this but needing a clutch, all bearings, seals, etc. The cost would be 2/3rds of a new Sanden compressor!
No, I'll pony up to the bar and pay my new compressor fee!

Now.....what to get???????

No one knows about capacity vs efficiency and massive amounts of cold air?

In simple terms what is the advantage ...........
or IS there an advantage ........
of running a 709 style pump over a 508 style pump? Does that 16cc of increased capacity per stroke really make any difference?

Dave
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