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Oil Cooler ports for Manual Vanagon transaxle
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:48 pm    Post subject: Oil Cooler ports for Manual Vanagon transaxle Reply with quote

Since my tranny's out of the van, I'd like to drill, tap & cap two ports for adding a manual transmission oil cooler (for the 90wt) , and add it later if if the temps (on my gauge) are not to my liking. Does anyone have pics of the best location for these ports? I have a Syncro with a Subaru EJ25 lump (173HP).

Member "Gears" welded an input port where it squirts cooled oil at 4th gear http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5...ns+rebuild this is all really really COOL!. But I can't do this level of work, I have to pick sensible locations for the pickup & return ports ASAP so I can get my van back on the road.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK just got thru reading the above referenced post, it took 2 hours to read it and digest it. What fabulous work. I wish I had a tranny apart in my shop, with special tools, time & expertise nearby. And those experts willing to work for beer & bbq.

Vanagon transmission cooling is a very "involved" modification. There is no "good place to drill ports". And you are "ADDING A SIGNIFICANT SYSTEM".

I think I will just add the temp gauge, and if I ever do go the route of cooling, probably won't drill into the various critical locations, will just use Gears' filler plug access with clever 4th gear sprayer nozzle.

And drive "by the temp gauge". I'm glad I didn't choose a 6-cyl, almost wish I had an EJ22. Returning to traveling at normal vanagon speeds is torture enough with an EJ25. Hows it going with that Subaru transaxle?
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, while Gear's solution is ideal, just getting the fluid out of the transmission and through a cooler would be an improvement. You could find AN fittings that replace the drain plug and fill plug.

Scavenge oil out the drain plug, return it into the fill plug. Post pictures if you do it. Naysayers will say the having the pickup at the drain is asking for trouble on the trail and I would agree to a point. You will need an inline filter for the pump.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both Alaric and I have been cooling fluid via the fill and dump ports for many miles now.
You can also use a inline temp sensor and not touch the cases one bit.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will drill tap for a sensor because tranny's apart (EZ).

I want to know what situations in my driving overheat the trans and I think I will find out soon enough. If driving it like a WBX becomes burdensome then I'll weigh that against the burden of adding a "SYSTEM".

Thx for feedback that you guys are satisfied with using with dump/fill ports. Thankful that 4th gear is near the fill port.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pardon dumb question. What is an inline sensor? Where do you put it? Picture? Thanks.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Inline" means you put the sensor in one of your transmission oil cooler hoses. To do this you must first ---> have <--- a transmission oil cooler.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any comments on this location for the oil pickup? Sure looks like it will scavenge better, and keep the floor cleaner than the drainplug location, which is 12mm above the floor. Also what thread? 3/8 NPT? This looks just "easy", but need to drill a hole .58" diameter.

Also is the other side a good location for the temp switch? (3/4"-16) need 11/16" drill size for this (and the tap). Not sure where I can get that done. Maybe an inline thermoswitch is better.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Since I'm planning to changing tranny oil more often I hogged out that drainplug to get a few more mm out. Or do the "cool fellas" use their pump it out anyway?

Need to decide on the best place for the return.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still interested what the cooler dudes on this forum think of my oil scavenge location. My thoughts are:

- at the bottom I can suck up more detritus and catch it (and observe it) in the filter.
- easier to keep the prime

Also is steel braided hose necessary? This is a low pressure system. The pressure is simply based on what the pump can produce against it's resistance (filter?). Will I get $200 of value out of that hose & expensive fittings (beyond the forum photos)? Pressures, temperatures and vulnerability are similar to the engine coolant system, but with less imminent damage upon failure. Maybe it can be monitored with a 7psi pressure switch and a buzzer (before the filter?).

We used to run regular hose and push-on fittings on bug motor cooler/filter setups. With larger pumps etc I remember seeing 80, 90psi oil pressure on cold mornings and trying to hold the revs down which was difficult with dual webers on a big motor. EMPI bug kit for example includes the filter spin-on too for $90 complete. http://r.ebay.com/BzXJcx

For the syncro, and parts becoming extinct there is some sense in going the expensive route. But honestly I wonder if just buying a $200 pump and a VWbug cooler/filter kit for $90, and get the dang thing cooled ! Think would be more sensible for most folks than dangling a $1,000 race-motor barrier in front of them ($825 + $200 fittings etc). Seems like if somebody would make the bung fittings a reasonable kit can be assembled that those running EJ25s would be a fool not to buy. Shocked Easy to weld a steel 3/8NPT F threads onto a bung.
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Last edited by Sodo on Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Press fittings from Aeroquip/Earl's will work fine...the same used for Vanistan oil cooler setups.

As far as placement for the filter, I personally place my Oberg where it is extremely easy to get too and clean.
I have a check valve to hold the pump prime.
My systems still just use the dump and fill ports as my transmissions have not been rebuilt and are going strong.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got a link to the pump? Would like to get a handle on the complete project. First I need to install a gauge to read the remps with my 1.8t, but I tend to run as a hard as I can up the mountains I come across. Lots of fun but I would like to know what it's going to cost to run that hard...
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pump, sensor and switch covered in the original thread.
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shadetreetim
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, still need to read that whole thread. Browsing on my phone instead of laptop sucks. Laughing
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought the Weddle pump and cooler kit and need to decide where to put the in and out ports. I have the Weddle bearing retainer plate, and the machined relief for it makes it difficult to use "the cavity" for access.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm considering focusing on 4th gear and the mainshaft bearing. There seems to be lots of space directly above the fill bung. If I use a steel fitting it seems reasonable to braze a pipe to the fitting and screw it in. Perhaps 'shape" the end to squirt at the gap between 4th gear and the mainshaft bearing.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Are there any other really important bearings that I should make further effort to cool?
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....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK just got off the phone Steve at Weddle. https://weddleindustries.com/products/1000197/1002152

Steve made these points.

1) Weddle recommends their $400 gear-pump for $250,000 race cars, and it performs, for years. It squirts a stream about 3/8" of (warm) oil 2 to 3 feet out, about 2-3 gallons per minute. It will certainly deliver a large volume the 2 inches to 4th gear. It will pump something like 50psi. Running at ~10-15 psi the pump motor is just idling.
2) Cooling the transmission and the oil is your number one concern, addresses 95% of the problem. Said you can put a lot of effort into getting another couple percent.
3) If you can direct the oil to that 3mm gap between 4th gear and the bearing you may get a small benefit, he would do it if it's easy but a simple horizontal outlet from 2" above the filler bung is close to optimal. He'd add the pipe on a race car.
4) Oil is squirting oil on the 3,000rpm 4th gear spinning the "wrong way" thus won't contact the gear very long and may disturb its entry into the 3mm bearing slot but does disperse the cooled oil around the tranny.

He said frankly you can put it back anywhere as long as the cool oil circulating around the tranny picking up all the heat it can, you got 95%. Said the gear its in (4th), and the R&P, and bearings, pinion bearing, are where the heat is generated. Above the bung and hitting 4th gear has some benefit for highway driving but there are many other places where heat is generated. Anyway it's interesting he thinks using the filler and drain bungs will get you 95%.

Since my trans is apart, it's time to "Drill, baby Drill!" A simple 3/8"-18 NPT hole in the flat area 2" above the filler bung fits my M.O and I'm happy now. Very Happy

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Would be interesting if there's a way to remove trans & engine mounts, drop tranny/engine and drill & tap it "on-car". But that's for someone else to discover.
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EJ25, Peloquin diff, locker, transaxle oil cooler/filtration system
....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
One apple every 8 hours will keep 3 doctors away - B Kliban


Last edited by Sodo on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sodo Said:

"Would be interesting if there's a way to remove trans & engine mounts, drop tranny/engine and drill & tap it "on-car". But that's for someone else to discover."

There is a way! Use a Milwaukee type of 90 degree angle drill with a shortened drill bit. Apply regulated compressed air (say, 10 to 15 psi), to the transaxle vent to blow out the aluminum/magnesium chips on the drilling side. Drain gear oil and replace.

Oh, and if you have an aluminum magnet, Wink the job is even easier.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds doable, and a good reason to buy a right angle drill. Wonder if the Blair holecutters work OK in Alu or Mag. I suppose once you got in a ways you could remove the pilot and then just the "plug" blows out due to air pressure. If the holecutter works thats no chips from drilling.

With the tap, if you advance slowly & back up often it seems like all the threadcutting chips would blow out the flutes.

Howesight wrote:
if you have an aluminum magnet, Wink the job is even easier.


The filter will do that job.
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gears
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right. The oil should be fed from the other side of the upper gear (where rotation is working for you), and that type of retainer doesn't help. But as a bolt-on alternative (rather than drilling where you indicate), you could instead make an input fitting something like this ..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

.. and at least aim your cooled oil toward 4th gear and hopefully the mainshaft ball bearing.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gears wrote:
You're right. The oil should be fed from the other side of the upper gear (where rotation is working for you), and that type of retainer doesn't help. But as a bolt-on alternative (rather than drilling where you indicate), you could instead make an input fitting something like this ..

.. and at least aim your cooled oil toward 4th gear and hopefully the mainshaft ball bearing.


Hi Paul!

Do you mean the entry point of the oil squirter should be on the driver's side?

What would be the most efficient angle at which the oil is hitting the gear, and from what time? (12 o'clock, 3 o'clock? etc..)
What makes me think of that is like when you use a disc grinder, depending the attack angle you get , you don't get the same effect of sparks, and the grinder "walks" differently.

I was thinking looking at the gears on this picture, from the engine side, an entry point could be made at 12 o'clock above the 4th gear, dripping oil right above it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The entry point would be the 8mm bolt that ends up in the "acorn" casting of the main bearing carrier right above 4th gear.
It could be re-drilled and tapped at M10, the G-gear housing is already drilled at 10mm anyway, just needs to be bored a tad bit bigger.
The dead end in the casting, the "acorn" thing I'm describing above could be drilled above 4th gear to make it a dripper.

Then a gundrilled stud can be installed, drilled from the transmission side only (plugged outside) and a banjo fitting installed there.
Either something that would roughly look like this following picture or sandwiching the G gear housing and banjo fitting all together with a nut.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

On the left you can see an "X" drawn on the housing with a "Sharpie". That will be my entry point for the mainshaft ball bearing, like Herman did on his Syncro.

Then, all fittings are pretty much all in the same location for that upper part of the transmission.

Feed line from the pump can go to pinion bearing, then to mainshaft ball bearing with a double banjo like this -O- and from there to the 4th gear entry point and from there to the gundrilled mainshaft you can see on one of the pics.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Do I need to spray the mesh at the crown and pinion or just having cooled down the transmission oil is plenty there since the crown is bathing in the oil?

Aloha!
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gears
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a good idea, Alika .. As you can see, your acorn is right alongside my chosen entry point. Machine a slot similar to mine, and oil should get behind 4th, bathing the mainshaft bearing a bit, too.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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