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Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild
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OKType3Tim Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

The plastic plugs are available and inexpensive. My approach it to just use them. But your call on whether you want to tap and put in a threaded solution.

If there was no shim, and the unit operated satisfactorily, then the tolerance of that particular unit didn't require a shim. I say just go back without it. The shim doesn't affect the play. The shim is used to set the 'middle point'.

Page 5 & 6 in particular of this:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/practicalwork_steering.php

Tim
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koiboy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Hi Tim,thanks for getting back to me. The drawings will be really useful. Are the plugs generic nylon plugs?

Does anyone know where to source them in the UK?

Kind Regards
Elliot
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ST Dog
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

koiboy wrote:
Are the plugs generic nylon plugs?

Does anyone know where to source them in the UK?


Look pretty generic to me.

Search using partnumber 311-415-133
Here's one
https://www.heritagepartscentre.com/uk/311415133-bung-for-steering-box-cover-plate.html
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

OKType3Tim wrote:
Since the kits are used up---The question has been posed several times of "what to do?", "where can I get ________?"
The following is a fairly complete list, provided that the bushings in your unit are still good:

Bearings:
https://www.vwnos.com/508620b
Plugs:
https://www.vwnos.com/311-415-133
Gasket:
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=311415135A
Upper seal:
https://www.avxseals.com/Shaft-Oil-Seals-TC16x24x7-p/tc16x24x7.htm
Lower Seal:
https://www.avxseals.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TC24x37x7
Worm Shaft:
https://socalautoparts.com/product/worm-drive-roller-style-for-steering-box/
Roller Shaft:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1967535

Are the bearings the same across the board? (All years and models)
Will they fit my 74 Super Beetle?
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DeltaBravo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Wow! What a great community.

My gear box was (rackety) very rough when moving the steering shaft by hand. I noticed this feeling when I attempted to adjust the end play.

After removing the cover, I notice grease inside. Don't know what type or when it was service last, but it seems to be "pushed" away from the contact surfaces of the gears.
During the teardown, it seems as though, my gear box is completely stock. Original parts. So I don't know if the grease inside was original or not. But it appears to be an unmolested unit down to the gaskets and bearings.

I mention that because this is what I found. The bearings seem to be ok, but bearing surface is don'skies...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And about twice as much more play than the Bentley minimums.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8444317#8444317
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673255&highlight=
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OKType3Tim Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

DeltaBravo wrote:

My gear box was (rackety) very rough when moving the steering shaft by hand.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I have seen this very, very often in the teardowns that I have done. I don't know for sure, but my guess has always been that it is some combination of contaminated grease from years of condensation and some times just outright water intrusion.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

it could be water intrusion...

But I didn't see any evidence to support that. No moisture, no rust or other signs of corrosion.

My guess, it is a metallurgy issue. Especially since you've mentioned seeing this in a lot of steering gear boxes. I think the surface isn't hard enough (or softer than the bearings) to handle the pressures.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8444317#8444317
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673255&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=674097&highlight=
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W1K1
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Quote:
it could be water intrusion...

But I didn't see any evidence to support that. No moisture, no rust or other signs of corrosion.

My guess, it is a metallurgy issue. Especially since you've mentioned seeing this in a lot of steering gear boxes. I think the surface isn't hard enough (or softer than the bearings) to handle the pressures.


It definitely isn't water, bearing races are like roads, start with a small particle in the grease, and it causes a pot hole, the debris from the pot hole causes more pot holes. The end play may have been too tight and the bearing started grinding into the surface starting the pot hole and the whole process especially since its moving so slow compared to a wheel bearing.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

I agree that this is a bearing surface issue.

Which leads me into the next discussion of what to do...

I know there is are links with in this thread to find NOS parts and such. But, if the original parts wasn't holding up to the task, then NOS parts are not going to hold up either.

Maybe get an NOS shaft and have it hardened at the bearing surfaces? idk...what do you guys think?
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8444317#8444317
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673255&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=674097&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672791&highlight=

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

I am of the opinion that if we can take the old cranks and build them up with hard Weld and turn them into a stroker crank and then cut them back down the technology does exist although it would be on a radius a bit more tricky to cut back and it would be cutting hard well to
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Cptn. Calzone wrote:
turn them into a stroker crank


Laughing Laughing Laughing
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8444317#8444317
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673255&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=674097&highlight=
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Can you run a weld over the shaft and then put it on a lathe to take it back down to spec?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Another idea... Can the bearing races be turned off and new bearings with races be installed? That could avoid changing the heat treatment of the worm gear.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Quote:
Another idea... Can the bearing races be turned off and new bearings with races be installed? That could avoid changing the heat treatment of the worm gear.

Quote:
Can you run a weld over the shaft and then put it on a lathe to take it back down to spec?


I'm not a machinist but I'm sure both can be done. But at what cost? If I had the knowledge and means, I could justify doing something like this. But since I don't have either the knowledge or means, I sure this process would cost a bit. But I don't know that either...

Maybe it would be $100.... but prolly more like $300.

Any machinist out there that could shed some light? In the mean time, I'm going to ask my local guy and report back.
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My engine rebuild. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=656536&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8444317#8444317
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673255&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=674097&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672791&highlight=

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Currently rehabbing a Thing box. I discovered that the adjusting screw with the huge lock ring around it can be removed with the same chainsaw wrench that some are using to install TSIIs in FI Type IV motors. The one that looks like a corn-cob pipe. The exterior of the 19 mm (spark plug) side was for me, at least, a perfect fit in the screw. A couple taps on the wrench shaft with a hammer and off she goes.

Thank you for a great thread!
Andy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

DeltaBravo wrote:
Quote:
Another idea... Can the bearing races be turned off and new bearings with races be installed? That could avoid changing the heat treatment of the worm gear.

Quote:
Can you run a weld over the shaft and then put it on a lathe to take it back down to spec?


I'm not a machinist but I'm sure both can be done. But at what cost? If I had the knowledge and means, I could justify doing something like this. But since I don't have either the knowledge or means, I sure this process would cost a bit. But I don't know that either...

Maybe it would be $100.... but prolly more like $300.

Any machinist out there that could shed some light? In the mean time, I'm going to ask my local guy and report back.


Well...

The local Machinist I've used for several different types of engine with great results unfortunately does not have the capability to create the radius needed at both ends of the shaft to support the roller bearings.

There was another place mentioned that might be able to do it, but I've been warned that it might be very expensive. I will reach out to them and confirm.

In the mean time, I put mine back together with all the original parts (replacing only the seals and grease) with the CornHead stuff... And well... it seems ok right now. It moves a lot better. I know that isn't a "scientific" test result but it does feel better. So, I am going to use it for now.
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My engine rebuild. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=656536&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8444317#8444317
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673255&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=674097&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672791&highlight=

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

I guess I'm missing something as to why go to a lot of machining effort when you can just to this:
https://socalautoparts.com/product/worm-drive-roller-style-for-steering-box/
for $35 plus shipping. The worm shaft you can buy for $35 is just fine.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

OKType3Tim wrote:
I guess I'm missing something as to why go to a lot of machining effort when you can just to this:
https://socalautoparts.com/product/worm-drive-roller-style-for-steering-box/
for $35 plus shipping. The worm shaft you can buy for $35 is just fine.


The reason mentioned earlier;

The original part (although it seemed to last a long time) was not designed to withstand the pressures of the roller bearings. It seems these parts are not harden (or not hardened enough). The surface area breaks down over time and becomes pitted due to the harder material of the bearing rolling over the softer material of the shaft.

so the question isn't "where" to get a replacement part...but more of "should" I get the replacement part? Or should I repair/engineer a better one?
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My engine rebuild. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=656536&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8444317#8444317
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673255&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=674097&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672791&highlight=

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

OKType3Tim wrote:
I guess I'm missing something as to why go to a lot of machining effort when you can just to this:
https://socalautoparts.com/product/worm-drive-roller-style-for-steering-box/
for $35 plus shipping. The worm shaft you can buy for $35 is just fine.

I did not realize you could just get that part. It isn't quite right, why is the steering coupler clamp bolt spot a long flat on the shaft? Stock was a rounded notch for the bolt that clamps the steering coupler onto the shaft. Replacement boxes seem to have that long clamp area too. Still, for a normal street driven restore that should be fine.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:
It isn't quite right, why is the steering coupler clamp bolt spot a long flat on the shaft? Stock was a rounded notch for the bolt that clamps the steering coupler onto the shaft. Replacement boxes seem to have that long clamp area too.


Your observation of the difference is correct.
So, this allows for adjustability of the coupler flange along the axis of the worm shaft. Thus, allowing a single worm shaft part to cover vehicles that have slightly different dimensions for steering column length in relation to the actual location of the front beam. I.E. The manufacturing fit-up of our vehicles isn't guaranteed to be that precise year-to-year, country-to-country. Not to mention 60-70 years of previous owners and repair folks working on your vehicle.
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