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Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold SOLVED!!
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold SOLVED!! Reply with quote

My 86 Automatic works great!........ When warm.
Warm is 4-6 miles of driving.

It will not upshift into 3rd until that time period has passed.

I've done my homework, I've searched and read and printed out volumes of information.

Check fluid level, operating temperature, idling in park, level surface....
It's good! ^^^ (Yes, I know the proper level check procedure)

Change the filter screen.....
Done! ^^^^

Switch to Ford type "F" fluid.....
It's in there! ^^^

Pull the valve body, clean the shift valves. Split the valve body and repair the steel ball damage on the separating plate....
Done! ^^^^

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=645558&start=20

Adjust linkage....
Linkage is adjusted! ^^^^

What's next?
Why does this behave like this?
What is the repair specifically? (Not a blanket "go get it rebuilt" suggestion.)

Any ideas?
I'm certainly out of them. Crying or Very sad

Dave
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

Change the seals on the 2nd gear brake band piston, adjust the 2nd gear brake band--tighten it up a hair.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

Hairline crack on an internal drum bleeding off pressure? Seal on a piston? Both of which are internal, sounds like you have covered all of the external possibilities. Maybe swap the valve body with a known good one?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

How is reverse when cold? I ask as if you have a direct/reverse clutch problem..it will show up in third and reverse. If only a third gear problem..then a governor/governor drive or valve body problem.

http://reflectionsandshadows.com/a1-tech/BIGATSG.pdf
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

Reverse is fine all of the time as are the lower gears.

Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

iirc the diagnostic also suggested a dirty governor could be the source.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

I replaced the governor cover seal.

A dirty governor would be easily seen when removing that cover or would the problem be deeper inside?

What gets "dirty"?
The weights?

Dave
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

Enough mung to keep the weights from slinging out freely.

However, the trans not making the the 2-3 shift until the trans heats up has about zero chance due to a stuck governor .

Scum, dirt, garbage in the governor is not a heat related item of interest.

Clean it up anyway, just for grins.
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AtlasShrugged
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

I had the same problem with a hanging no shift third gear, when cold, in my daughter's VW Cabriolet..same 010 transmission as a Vanagon..different transaxle. Transmission had about 200k miles on it.

How many miles on your transmission?

I rebuilt the transmission using new parts and some better internals from a Porsche 924 automatic.

The reason for the "hanging 3rd gear up-shift when cold" was a worn separator plate in the valve body, where one of the ball bearings rides back and forth in the plate. It had developed a ridge which kept the ball from going back and sealing a port..till it got warmed up.

Those separator plates are NLA.

The solution is to use an axacto blade and trim the ridge..with care..then use a very fine scotch-brite pad and smooth the surface of the plate.

There are other ball bearing in the valve body too..with worn ports..cleaned up those too. They were not as bad..but needed to be done.

Disassembling the valve body is fiddly..and you must keep all the balls, pistons and springs separate and logically in order.

As to the governor.. I would remove it and be sure the drive end is not broken (I don't remember if the governor can be pulled out completely with the transmission in place..and I do recall some loose bit that might fall off the end of the drive into the diff..need to check)..but do check your valve body first. Thankfully you can do the valve body with the transmission in situ.





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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

With all the fancy CNC cutters out there, I bet it would be easy for a machinist to make replacement valve body plates. They would just need an original for the measurements.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
With all the fancy CNC cutters out there, I bet it would be easy for a machinist to make replacement valve body plates. They would just need an original for the measurements.


Indeed. A good shop with a Coordinate measurement machine can trace the old body in about an hour. Load the trace into CAD/CAM (another hour of work). Generate a toolpath, and send to the machine for cutting. Laser cutting should be close enough tolerance. Once the initial work it done, one of those plates would cost less than $50

Alternatively, you could weld the hole up (after measuring its location). Then use a horizontal grinder to take the weld flat. Then drill a new hole.

It may even be possible to braze the hole close as well, but warping would be a concern.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

Porsche still sells the valve 010 bodies..amazingly enough. Fits 944/924S..late model transmissions..could be part number 087325037C ($ 204.82) or 087325037J..probably the "J" is a later. Cost $ 235.83 for the "J" from Jim Ellis Porsche..brand new.

Porsche is my go to for VW NLA 010 transmission parts...they are more devoted to the old cars. Did not know they still sold valve bodies new.

I know the 944 valve body will work in a Vanagon..I ran one for a while and then transplanted the 944 valve body into the VW Cabriolet, which works fine there too.

I don't remember if the 944 valve body was a "J" or "C"..think it was a "J".


Last edited by AtlasShrugged on Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

What the heck---
90% of vanagonland uses, promotes, suggests using JB weld for worse situations than this, I think Dave being the grand poobah of experimentation, and side stepping the inevitable, should repair that wallowed out port with some JB, sand it slick , snd report back with his findings.

I don't think this is the issue hindering the trans to shift when the trans is cold, but what the hay, good time to play with some JB Weld in the trans valve body.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

Since the JBW has been so warmly recommended you can hardly NOT try it now, right?

But maybe it's a combination of things that bring the temperature into play, like VB + oil pressure, or something?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

I doubt JB Weld would be a solution. I find it helpful..but not here. The ball bearing rocks back and forth on the plate..as you can see the steel will wear out. JB Weld, I would suspect, will wear out faster and may come loose and plug up somewhere.

Back to the new Porsche valve bodies..got a reply about the $200 087325037C. Thank you for contacting Porsche Atlanta Perimeter. Porsche is only showing one left of these in the world at the moment and would take about 3 weeks to get in out of Germany (if their inventory is actually correct). On the 087325037J, ($240) This one is Germany as well, but they are showing 21 of them

I may order the "C" valve body and C what happens. $1200 less than retail.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

Sir, I believe you are more serious-minded than the previous poster.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Reverse is fine all of the time as are the lower gears.

Dave


djkeev..I just re-read your original post and missed the part where you did do your valve body separator plate..very sorry..assuming your valve body clean-up worked..you need to explore your governor.

I thought this YouTube was interesting and maybe applicable:


Link
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

Interesting video! ^^^

Digging this thread up from the dead,

I put in a new valve body from Porsche to absolutely rule out the possibility of it causing my delayed 3rd gear upshift.

Every morning, it takes 6-8 miles before a 3rd gear upshift.
If I stop for a period of time, it can be several miles before an upshift happens, it doesn't take long to cool off!

The colder the weather, the longer it is before the upshift.

Fortunately It never failed to upshift on a recent 8,000 mile journey.

I do use a considerable amount of ATF, it leaks. I used about 12 qts during the trip.
The exact leak location eludes me, I'll need to clean it up and find the source.

I am about ready to pull and reseal the unit though it works so well, outside of the cold delay shift, I'm hesitant to do so.

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

How full is your final drive?

When the suction filter failed on my 91 filling the tranny with crap and it quit shifting properly taking forever to shift until the unit warmed up. I took the entire valve body apart and found no obvious problems. Sent it in for a repair and the problem was still there when it came back from the rebuilder. Over time it did slowly fix itself, but when allowed to sit for a month or three the symptoms return and take a while to disappear once it was put back into service. I have guessed that it is the seals on one of the pistons getting hung up on a groove or something similar, but really have no clue.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Delayed auto trans upshift from 2nd - 3rd when cold Reply with quote

The final drive level is fine. One of the things I've checked. There is no mixing happening between the two units.

Dave
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