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It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:11 am    Post subject: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

.... then the engine lost power, as all the dash lights lit up.
We were an hour away from home, returning from a weekend bus rally in the Black Forest.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

So, we wait three hours for a tow truck to arrive from our home area to bring as home (gotta LOVE ADAC!).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The next morning, I'm able to get a better look at my issues.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The accessories belt had snapped. The timing belt was not looking in too good of condition, either! And it's only 7445KM old!
As I started taking things apart, I noticed that the Generator bracket was loose. (But the bolts were tight!)
As I removed the bracket, THIS was what I saw:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I know, you can't really see it. Here:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Here is the offending bolt:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I WANT to think that the two conditions are related, but I just can't be sure.

So, now we come to the real puzzler.
This was LAST touched be the so-called "professionals" at my local VW dealer. (Is it confidence inspiring when they have to call in the SHOP MEISTER, and he is unsure of what to do?)
Anywho- As I was getting the timing marks lined up, I discovered that they DIDN'T line up!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Ummm, riiight.
The pump is off, by A LOT!
How did this even RUN?
So, I dropped a line to a friend (yes, I have a few...),
and he tells me 'no worries. take the belt off, and reset the pump by hand.' (Translated from original Franconian)
So, yeah, I popped the belt off, and reset the pump.
But WOW! Does THIS look right to anyone else?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This guy has 7,445 Kilometers on it! (I don't do alot of sit and idle. BIG no-no here in Germany)
However, things progress:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I now need to go and find a replacement bolt for this broken one.
I am also swapping out the glow plugs. Two of them had soot around them, and I want to do MS. TABOO's glow plug upgrade (ok, I know it's not hers, but she gave me the idea...)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Also, 7,445 km old.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Being this is my first diesel vehicle, I'm still unsure of steps and procedures. Hence this post. If anyone sees a mis-step, PLEASE say something!
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Last edited by Team WorldTour on Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump..... Reply with quote

unfortunately, none of your pictures came though to look at.

just guessing now that if your timing marks did not line up then whoever was working on your may have not gotten them lined up when they installed the drive pulleys on the shafts.
It is not a incredibly bad thing if you know how to get the engine lined up.
Sometimes on the gas engines with the distributor people will install them 180° out from where they should be, but if you understand how the engine works you can get it running.

It is a diesel so it should not rotate easily by hand.
At this point any damage done to the engine has been done.
Does the engine turn over easily by using the starter motor making normal sounds?
What I am looking for is the sound of damage caused by the valves not being in the right position when the pistons come up and down.
If the timing belt broke then the valves may have been in the wrong position and hit the pistons.
Right now just want to find out if the engine is okay?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump..... Reply with quote

Yeah, about that engine starting.....
I've no idea yet. The valve cover is still off, as well as the generator. The water pump is not on a belt yet, either. I'm doing the @Pimp My Glow [email protected] upgrade right now.
The timing belt did NOT break
Just everyone understands this.
The ACCESSORY belt broke (generator, water pump).
Im still confused though as to why the motor died when (how) it did.
But the timing belt is just in bad shape, NOT broken.
There is a NEW timing belt in place now.

I don't know what happened with the pics, either.
It used to work for me.....

Edit #523: Uploaded pics to Samba.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump..... Reply with quote

If your timing marks are off that much you may have serious engine damage, it may be possible than the engine locked up and the belt jumped.
Can you rotate the engine by hand? if no you have problems.
Valves touching the piston tops is not good.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump..... Reply with quote

Yes, I can turn the motor by hand.
The pump was the ONLY link out of whack. Everything else lined up as it should.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump..... Reply with quote

Team WorldTour wrote:
Yes, I can turn the motor by hand.
The pump was the ONLY link out of whack. Everything else lined up as it should.


Lucky that the timing belt did not break...whew! Okay so you can turn engine by hand - full revolution for a diesel by hand...how much compression are you fighting to turn it by hand?
You have the valve cover off so you can see all the valve stems moving. Do they look okay?
Whatever the "Thump" was it might have caused the timing belt to jump one tooth which may have been a stopping of the engine? I don't think one tooth is going to cause a dramatic stop like that without damaging the valves first, but I could be wrong.
If the valve timing was not out of whack enough for the pistons to hit them why the sudden stop?
Was it a sudden stop or did the engine still rotate coming to a stop because of no power?

Have you checked your engine oil for metal pieces?

Your pictures are coming through for me now, may have been my poor internet connection.

Does your generator turn freely? Thinking maybe it might have locked up, but you would have smelled burning rubber from the belt burning itself up on the pulley.
If the accessory belt broke what are the chances it got caught under the timing belt causing it to jump a link? Are there any marks on the accessory belt to show it might have gotten caught under the timing belt and pulley?
I don't know your engine to see how the belts are routed in relation to each other if that could happen.
How old was that belt-was it new at 7445km ago?


Your T3 looks good with the olive drab paint and air scoop.
How is the weather over there right now?
I'm going to be in Germany the first week of October. Right now the only clothes I have are shorts and T-shirts!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump..... Reply with quote

I have no idea what the accessory belt looked like.
I heard the thump, and I checked my mirrors.
Some black thing disappearing in the distance (the belt).
I only found a small piece of it in my skid-plate.
Generator turns fine, water pump is a little stiff, but turns (BOTH were new 7,445 km ago!).
Tension pulley is stiff (I have a new one already).
My plastic covers for the timing belt are mostly intact.
I guess the belt has been coming apart for a week or two now...
EVERYTHING for the engine is 7,445 km old.
Belts, hoses, injectors, pump, motor, generator, oil lines, pulleys, everything.
Cost me 6G, did all the work myself with the help of an apprentice.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump..... Reply with quote

It's been awhile since I owned my AAZ Tristar so I'm a bit rusty on diesel stuff. (and it was my first, so I'm no expert)
But, a couple thoughts. First I recommend that you go back and edit the title of the thread to include something like "need help with AAZ diesel", this will attract the attention of the diesel crowd. [Moderator note: Suggestion added to title.]
Next, I remember that the AAZ had a common problem of a bad crank sprocket nut, did you change that out?
There seems to be a lot of oil, where did that come from?

Another great place for help is VWdiesel.net in the IDI section.
Best of luck!

http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?board=6.0

Steve M. wrote:
It is a diesel so it should not rotate easily by hand.
Steve, if the glow plugs are out it's just as easy to turn diesel as a petrol engine with the spark plugs out.[/i]
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

Your friend knows diesels as you said so you know that the camshaft turn 2 times wih one mainshaft turn which means you can insert the camshaft lock when the mainshaft is 180degrees off TDC?
Be sure that you can turn the mainshaft over with the belt before the first starting attempt.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:26 pm    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump..... Reply with quote

MsTaboo wrote:

Steve, if the glow plugs are out it's just as easy to turn diesel as a petrol engine with the spark plugs out.


Of course, but he did not say he had taken them out or I missed it. I assumed they were still installed.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:01 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

ZsZ wrote:
Your friend knows diesels as you said so you know that the camshaft turn 2 times with one mainshaft turn which means you can insert the camshaft lock when the mainshaft is 180degrees off TDC?
Be sure that you can turn the mainshaft over with the belt before the first starting attempt.


I was afraid of that very thing.
"How can I be sure the cam is in the correct position?"
Well, my fears were QUICKLY put to rest!
The cam lock slot is offset. ie- The cam lock will NOT fit 180d off!
o-0
So, yeah. Dodged the bullet on THAT potential fuck-up!
And no, I have not yet done the turning bit of the job, but as I recall, the advice I was given was TWO complete rotations. (yeah, I know it's the same idea, just repeating what I was told...)

As far as the ease of turning, I am using a long 19mm wrench, so there are some hard spots in the 360 (four, to be exact!), but I'm strong enough to pull through it.

As far as the oil- that is all from the last 7000km. Some of the parts were old left overs from the last motor (and the JX before that!), so like the turbo feed line that decided to pack it in on the way TO the garage!
Or the oil filter holder that didn't want to seal anymore, so it got replaced.
THEN, the oil filter didn't fit with the new tower (with Ten-Cent's cooler attachment), so I installed the filter relocator.
The first hoses were NOT up to standard. THEN, one of the plugs leaked!
o-0
Yeah, this guy has had some issues to iron out........
And JUST when it gets to the point where I'm NOT leaking oil, and I'm feeling confident to make a long drive away from home, THIS happens!
Rolling Eyes
So, I guess going through all this, and still looking for a solution that doesn't involve fire, crushers or a very large hammer, MUST mean I'm a proper addict!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

I like these "guess what happened to my engine" posts - sort of like a who done it mystery Wink

I'd say you alternator belt broke or came off due to broken bolt) and somehow went into your timing belt for a few milliseconds (THUMP). This could have made it jump time - very likely. If the pistons did't hit the valves you are on very lucky fellow

If you can turn it over by hand (without the GPs in) and you don't feel any rough spots, replace the defective parts, time the pump, and crank it up.
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28

There are AAZ experts here as well as on other forums. I'm not one. I did rebuild mine though and I can tell you that there is very little allowed deviation in crank to cam timing.

As has been stated, the TDI sprocket with the keyway is a much better unit than the stock AAZ sprocket but requires machining a flat on the crank. You may or may already have this. Also, if you remove the sprocket, use a new factory bolt and torque it to spec.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

At the risk of stating the obvious, that is a lot of oil around the top of the water pump. I'm wondering where the grit came from that is mixed in with it. It seems like more than would come from that sheared alternator bracket bolt.

As was previously suggested, some or all of the alternator / water pump belt may have taken a quick ride with the timing belt causing those chomped out places.

Before you get everything buttoned back up I would check the crank pulley attachment very closely. Make a bar that you can bolt onto the crank pulley and rest against the ground so you can check the torque properly. Gently try loosening the crank bolt. If the bolt comes loose easily take the crank pulley off and inspect the key-way. Either way, replace the crank bolt.

Once you have the pulley / damper back on check to make sure it doesn't wobble while the engine is running

Erik

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

Um, wow.
Sorry to lead you all astray! This is NOT oil!
This is brake cleaner, sprayed to clean up the oil film from previous issues!

The grit is cat litter (dry sweep), used to soak up said oil. I got as much out as I could, but obviously, not all of it!

I like the theory of the bitten belt. That WOULD explain the thump, and the motor shut down.
The motor is starting to go back together. The front is still off, and the timing belt exposed. I haven't turned it over with the new belt on yet, but when I did with the old belt, I could turn it over. As I pushed it through compressions, I could hear air escaping. I did not hear anything out of the ordinary.
There was NO grinding or crunching noises.

I DO want to remove the belt again to DOUBLE check my work.
For the record, I have NOT removed the crank gear.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

Sorry if I missed you explaining that earlier Embarassed

I know the sound of that thump having had it happen to me. It's amazing what flying belt bits can do.

I've had many tribulations with my crank pulley so I apologize if my admonition was over the top. Mine was modified for the "D" shaped pulley but at one point I was checking the timing and found that it had become sloppy. When I removed it I found it had been shifting around and chewed up the crank nose. I cleaned everything up and pinned it and put the bolt in with a good dose of red Loctite. When the crank broke recently at the counterweight ahead of the rod journal at the flywheel end, I discovered that the crank pulley had again come loose and the bolt was little more than finger tight. New crank and a promise to myself to check the torque every few months and replace the bolt annually.

Erik
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

I wold still do as Eric suggested - check the crank pulley torque. Not that the mishap would have done anything to loosen it, but your in this far already.

Also, as Eric pointed out, once you loose the fit of the crank to the pulley, it only gets worse. In other words, if it's not torqued to spec, you have some work ahead of you. You also have an opportunity to remove one of the weak areas on this engine.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

bridgetroll13 wrote:
I've had many tribulations with my crank pulley so I apologize if my admonition was over the top. Mine was modified for the "D" shaped pulley but at one point I was checking the timing and found that it had become sloppy. When I removed it I found it had been shifting around and chewed up the crank nose. I cleaned everything up and pinned it and put the bolt in with a good dose of red Loctite. When the crank broke recently at the counterweight ahead of the rod journal at the flywheel end, I discovered that the crank pulley had again come loose and the bolt was little more than finger tight. New crank and a promise to myself to check the torque every few months and replace the bolt annually.


Are you running the clutched alternator pulley?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:41 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
Are you running the clutched alternator pulley?


Is this directed at me?
I would have to say no, in that the generator pulley is small and has no moving parts.
I have heard that people use these
I have heard that these fail at random times.
I have heard that people wish they hadn't used them.

My van did not come with one, and the stock replacements do not feature them.

Once I understand them, maybe I would consider using them.
Mr. Libby- since you are replying on my thread, could you please PM me?
I would like your opinion on a different matter.


Eric- Sorry Mate. You did not miss anything. The pictures were taken as I was doing the disassembly, and I didn't think about what someone could imagine looking at them. Honest mistake.

I was thinking about the trip through the timing belt, and while I will not discount it, I think it is important to note that the belt covers are *mostly* intact. The only real damage is on the lower cover, and it looks consistent with the belt coming apart, not something intruding in on it.
I will take a picture of it today, and post it up tonight.
I have to go and inspect my wife's car today, so I won't be able to do much on the van today (still waiting on that bolt as well!).
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:53 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

Quote:
Are you running the clutched alternator pulley?


I have been for a long while. I did switch to the spring loaded idler when I disassembled the engine to replace the crank. Hoping that helps but have heard mixed reviews about it.

Erik
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: It started with a thump... AAZ diesel help needed Reply with quote

Hello again, boys and girls!
It's 'Good News, Bad News' time again!
Good news: IT'S ALIVE!!!
Bad News: The temp light blinks, CONSTANTLY.

Ok, so as promised, here are a few pictures of the lower timing belt cover:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The square bit wasn't quite so big. I cut the loose, rubbed plastic off.
Here it is, mounted. From here, the trip through the timing belt looks plausible.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

However, looking at it with the crank on, the space is too small (IMHO).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I think the belt passing through this space would have caused more damage than there is.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now, about that light....
The Temp light was the FIRST blinking light I saw when the thump happened. The van fired up after a little cranking (the timing is at ZERO),
But he idles fine.
Normally, this light goes out after a few seconds of idling.
However, today is different. I shut the van down, and made a thorough inspection. All connectors connected. All hoses present and accounted for.
Reservoir full. NO wetness, water, coolant, oil or spilled beer.
After inspections, I restarted and let it run. Everything went just fine. Warmed up, felt the hoses, felt the thermostat open, felt the radiator start to warm up.
Light still blinking.

I'm open to suggestions.
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