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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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But a "Sorry I hosed your car and left you hanging" would be nice 
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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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The worn tracks on the AFM board have ZERO to do with the issue here. Yea, mine has worn tracks. The car also runs great and passed smog as is.
I wish I had taken a picture of the AFM arm before I cleaned it up. Where I colored in the red in the photo, it was all black and charred. But you had to move the AFM arm and have it swing by to see and feel the issue.
I bought 3 DR's and had them blow every time I installed them. Not including the one that blew when you were here. So, this has been expensive but I am not asking for anything. I just needed the issue to be resolved.
Your offer for the chance to remedy the situation is a little late now. It is fixed and the responses here are to thank the people that helped me resolve it.
End of story, time to move on.
Kevin
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12729
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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| KKiley wrote: |
You bent the #39 arm to adjust it. I remember this distinctly. The problem is, when you adjusted it, it made contact with the sweeping arm of the AFM and grounded out the wire. We had a huge spark at the coil and it was dead. It blew out the relay. no more fuel pump. |
I adjusted five parts of your car, but I think I know what you're saying. The orange-ish paint in your photo is the wiper flap counter-weight. This part compensates the AFM movement for the installed angle and movement of the of the AFM due to variances in airflow demands. Every vehicle is different; the Alpha Romeo, Vanagon, bus, and bug AFMs all have different geometry here.
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| My car was not "trashed" when you got here, but it didn't run when you left. |
I explained this to you in March; your wiper board was not capable of producing reliable readings due to wear. Volkswagen explicitly states "if there is no continuity, replace the intake air sensor." According to the engineers at CMS Circuit Solutions in Temecula, CA, (who make AFM wiper boards,) I did "bend the AFM wiper contacts to diagnose a worn track and create new electrical contact area." This is shown in your photo, where the brass arms to the wiper points are bent one way, then back, to utilize the unworn area of the wiper board. See the bend in yours right before the wiper arm splits into two (redundant) arms?
Now see the unaltered arms on a fresh AFM? (Sorry for the blurry pic.)
It is important to me that you understand what I did and didn't do to your car, and it is important to me to know if I caused an additional problem. If I did, I would like the chance to remedy it before we argue publicly about a miscommunication. If you and Jim conclude that the AFM counterweight was indeed contacting the hot fuel pump shut-off points that I adjusted, I owe you a double relay.
Robbie
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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Robbie,
You are not reading the issue correctly. The car was running when you got here. It has nothing to do with the tracks on the AFM. We adjusted the AFM, got it tuned to 14.5-1 as well as we could.
You bent the #39 arm to adjust it. I remember this distinctly. The problem is, when you adjusted it, it made contact with the sweeping arm of the AFM and grounded out the wire. We had a huge spark at the coil and it was dead. It blew out the relay. no more fuel pump.
My car was not "trashed" when you got here, but it didn't run when you left. Thanks to Evfun, Jimbo and others, it is fixed.
So, if the arm from #39 touches the AFM plate as it swings by, it will blow out the relay. I had all sorts of arcing and the VOM confirmed we had contact.
And that is the story. It is resolved.
Kevin
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12729
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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I'm really confused what was tapping and arcing on what in the double relay. Could you rewrite this bit without using the itpronouns so we can grasp what happened? There are dozens of parts here, and I'd like to know exactly what was causing the short.
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…what happened was it made contact with the AFM arm when it would swing over and blow out the board. 39 at the AFM is 88a at the dual relay.
Before I cleaned up the arm where I marked it red (that is photoshopped, not on the arm), it had arcing all over it. It was making contact in spots and arcing in others. I just happened to feel it when I was holding the AFM and checking the motion. |
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I'd like it to be known that when I arrived earlier this year, the AFM static and dynamic adjustments were both disassembled, and I reassembled them to the best of my ability. As we can see in the photograph, the AFM wiper tracks are thoroughly worn in the "idle" territory. Though I don't want to waste too much time trying to speculate the cause of the wear at this point, (PO's bad valve adjustments come to mind, or vacuum leaks or bad ignition timing,) I also bent the contact pickups in a parallel shape so the un-worn AFM track could be used. Our multimeter tests proved that the worn areas were unusable, and your driving tests back on page 2 or 3 confirmed this:
| Quote: |
| Started ok, after about a minute, idle dropped off. Would barely idle at the stop lights and the mid-range performance is terrible. Goes great when I nail it to the floor though. |
I bent the pickup arms with the explination "your wiper board is trash. Bentley says you need to replace the entire AFM. Shall we bend the pickup arms to try to salvage this one?" Our agreement was unanimous, and the engineers I've spoken to who design these boards have confirmed my methods as being diagnostically sound, for testing purposes. (They can't ethically recommend the practice as a long term solution, since the pressure of the pickup tips is very important; I did my best to match, and I would do it on my own car in a heartbeat.)
So there is a lot going on inside your AFM that I was involved with. I need to know if any diagnostic steps we took need to be removed from the public bag of tricks.
Robbie
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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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| EVfun wrote: |
Yes!  |
I was so scared to use the last good dual relay, but when you said the source was 88a or 88b, I knew I had the issue pinpointed. It wouldn't have happened without your help!
Kevin
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EVfun
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Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5489
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Yes!
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| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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This whole experience just goes back to the saying, go back to the last area that you were working on. We were in the AFM, Robbie was doing some final adjustments, we started the car up and it went poof, goodbye fuel pump.
I drove the car tonight, it is back to normal. I think the DR was tapping the case, but it is working exactly how it is supposed to. all quiet again.
If you ever get a chance to drive a FI car, do it. You will be amazed at how easy it is to drive, so smooth, just press on the pedal and go.
I just couldn't let this car beat me. I am confident the car is solid now. It has been a group project and I couldn't have done it without the forum's help.
I am a happy camper tonight!
Kevin
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VW_Jimbo 
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Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9973
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Glad you got it! Persistence has paid off once again!
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Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
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GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Finally, we found the issue. It took a friend of mine sitting here going over things and Jim on the phone, and it turns out it wasn't a wire at all.
When Robbie was here, he adjusted the AFM and also adjusted the 36 and 39 connection that powers the dual relay for the fuel pump when it is running.
The 2 red arrows shows the arm he adjusted. Well, what happened was it made contact with the AFM arm when it would swing over and blow out the board. 39 at the AFM is 88a at the dual relay.
Before I cleaned up the arm where I marked it red (that is photoshopped, not on the arm), it had arcing all over it. It was making contact in spots and arcing in others. I just happened to feel it when I was holding the AFM and checking the motion.
Moved the arm up, put everything back together, my last good dual relay and the car fired right up. Fuel pump is off when key is on not running, works and stays on while it is running.
There seems to be an issue with the dual relay engaging, it is clicking/cycling while the car is running. Actually, it was clicking on and off when the key was on and not running, but that has stopped. I just drove it around the block, so maybe with more miles it might settle back in. But we are back to a functioning car!
Thanks everyone
Kevin
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EVfun
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Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5489
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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| KKiley wrote: |
Question. I am testing with all wires unplugged. I have #15, the black wire going to the coil, which is terminal 86c at the dual relay, unplugged from the coil and it shows continuity to ground. I see wire 15 gets power thru the ignition switch, so if the key is off, will it still show continuity to ground?
Thanks
Kevin |
There is generally several wires going to 15 on the coil. Are you sure you are testing the one that goes to the double relay plug? If the double relay is removed from the plug, and your jumper that makes it run without the double relay disconnected, and the #15 wire you are testing removed from the coil, then there should be no continuity to ground. It would be a complete open, just a wire going from the coil to the double relay plug. The problem comes when you do not have everything unplugged because I don't know how you are measuring continuity.
If you still have the jumper you use to run the fuel pump in place you could be measuring through the fuel pump to ground. The fuel pump may be about a 1 ohm resistance to ground not running and most go/no-go continuity testers would show that as having continuity.
Based on how the relays where damaged I am pretty sure you are looking for a short to ground on the wires leading from either terminal 88a or 88b. The relays all had the same trace on the circuit board burned open, between terminal 88z and the relay contact. When that relay closed the current had to be very high, a short, to take out the copper on the board without showing any signs of heat damage on the relay.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Question. I am testing with all wires unplugged. I have #15, the black wire going to the coil, which is terminal 86c at the dual relay, unplugged from the coil and it shows continuity to ground. I see wire 15 gets power thru the ignition switch, so if the key is off, will it still show continuity to ground?
Thanks
Kevin
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VW_Jimbo
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Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9973
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Just back into town. Kevin next weekend is the soonest I can get to you. You up for chasing wires and replacing as needed?
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Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5489
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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| KKiley wrote: |
This car just baffles me. I tested terminal 39 on the car, it shows a short to ground. The harness was unplugged when I tested it. I pull the AFM off and get it on my bench, it tests fine.
So bizarre...
Kevin |
Unplugged from the AFM and the double relay? With that wiring unplugged at both ends it should just be an insulated wire from 39 to 88a. If it shows a short to ground it would almost certainly be the problem and that section of the harness will need to be chased to find out where it is shorted out.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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KKiley
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Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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This car just baffles me. I tested terminal 39 on the car, it shows a short to ground. The harness was unplugged when I tested it. I pull the AFM off and get it on my bench, it tests fine.
So bizarre...
Kevin
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KKiley
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Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Well, we are almost there, but the electrical issued reared it's head today. I blew one of the rebuilt relays and today when I put it back to the way I had it, it was trying to smoke a wire.
I think I have it narrowed to a short in the AFM on terminal 39, which is 88a on the relay. Removing the wiring plug from the AFM and testing 39 shows continuity to ground. So it might be an internal issue in the AFM. This equates to where Paul suggested I look.
I was hoping this issue was resolved with the bare ground wires, but although that is fixed, the underlying issue remains.
Kevin
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garyt
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Joined: June 14, 2015
Posts: 763
Location: Burgundy
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:47 am Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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| Great, all that work paid off in the end, congratulations. |
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rockerarm
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Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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| KKiley wrote: |
| Oh yea, the title, registration and sticker for the plate came on Friday. We are 100% legal now, about time! |
I think a Jay Leno's Garage Parody video is in order here, with Jimbo acting as Jay and the proud owner acting as himself. |
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VW_Jimbo
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Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9973
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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All the pieces are finally coming together!
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Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Oh yea, the title, registration and sticker for the plate came on Friday. We are 100% legal now, about time!
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