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jhax
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Location: Denver
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 Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 5:15 am Post subject: One way to prevent engine fires |
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Apologies if this has already been covered but I found this fire mitigation contraption over on the German T3 wiki and thought it was significant.
https://www.t3-pedia.de/index.php?title=Feuerl%C3%B6scher
Cheers,
Justin |
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4Gears4Tires
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 5:22 am Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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Yeah, a lot of us are running BlazeCuts, myself included.
Unfortunately we have one data point where BlazeCut did not put out the fire. The issue is that if the engine is still adding fuel to the fire, literally, BlazeCut does not have enough extinguishant to keep putting it out.
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danfromsyr
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Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 6:52 am Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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I always wanted to rig a nylon fishing 'trip wire' on a spring loaded switch to kill the fuel pump in the event of a engine bay fire..
still haven't but wanted to..
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Sodo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:07 am Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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I like that idea.
Could be a little trouble though.
Maybe string it across the front few inches of the engine compartment.
Too bad it can't be spread across the engine lid like a blazecut.
....along WITH a blazecut.
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
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markswagen
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Location: san diego
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:10 am Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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perhaps more than one, my wifes carat had a blazecut in it, the 12', if there'd been a longer one, l'd have had a longer one in there.
it might well had been enough apart from one issue, the wire from the alternator down to the starter, the fire had burned off the insulation, so there was a dead short, l believe it kept the fire alite.
the fire dept flooded it with water, TBH they did more damage to the body, than the fire did.
no attempt was made to locate the battery and cut a wire.
| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Yeah, a lot of us are running BlazeCuts, myself included.
Unfortunately we have one data point where BlazeCut did not put out the fire. The issue is that if the engine is still adding fuel to the fire, literally, BlazeCut does not have enough extinguishant to keep putting it out. |
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dobryan
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4Gears4Tires
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:29 am Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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I really like the battery cut off switch within reach of the drivers seat. But how to know to flip the switch as soon as possible?
I wonder what the effort would be to rig a smoke alarm safety switch to an alarm? Something like this? https://www.fcfnational.com.au/blog/smoke-alarm-smart-switch
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markswagen
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 8:19 am Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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they only work if the driver remembers that there is one there.
l have them on all of our vans.
the flames etc freaked out the wife, and she got out of the van as quickly as she could, not remembering there was a cut off.
by the time l go there it was too late.
| dobryan wrote: |
| And this is why I have a battery cut off switch within easy reach from the drivers seat. |
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DanHoug
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 9:36 am Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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| markswagen wrote: |
they only work if the driver remembers that there is one there.
l have them on all of our vans.
the flames etc freaked out the wife, and she got out of the van as quickly as she could, not remembering there was a cut off.
by the time l go there it was too late.
| dobryan wrote: |
| And this is why I have a battery cut off switch within easy reach from the drivers seat. |
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this might be a good reason for a continuous duty 600amp relay, activated with 'key on' position. it messes with things like parking lights, radio presets, courtesy circuits but just about everyone will grab the key and turn the motor off in a bad situation, disconnecting possibly shorting circuits.
since Vanagons have a propensity to self-immolation, a $600-$900 manually operated extinguish system with a 10lb cylinder of liquid fire suppressant really may be worthwhile. for that price, they come with the pull cable, multiple heads to flood the engine compartment with retardant, and enough capacity to snuff things out.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
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Sodo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 9:57 am Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
| this might be a good reason for a continuous duty 600amp relay, activated with 'key on' position. |
That's another good plan I think, perhaps more reliable than the fusible string.
And right at the battery it protects the whole van's electrical, not just engine-fire.
But why 600 amp?
200A is double the starter current and it's much more than double-overkill because at contact the current is prob less than 10A.
It's achieved static closed long before the starter begions drawing its 100A.
Even a 100A continuous seems overkill.
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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DanHoug
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 10:48 am Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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| Sodo wrote: |
But why 600 amp?
200A is double the starter current and it's much more than double-overkill because at contact the current is prob less than 10A.
It's achieved static closed long before the starter begions drawing its 100A.
Even a 100A continuous seems overkill. |
for all y'all that live in warm climes, sure, MAYBE 100a will do ya. i'll bet that at -20F i'm drawing at least 300-400 amps, maybe more, trying to start a cold engine. i'll have to measure it some stupid cold day, coming up shortly i imagine. at those temps, the starter is turning so slow it is akin to dead short thru the commutator. ironically but sensibly, you can burn up a starter motor far quicker at -20F than 100F!
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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E1
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 11:25 am Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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Said it a few times, but…
There’s a great product opportunity for a specific, user-installable onboard fire extinguisher system for VW buses… and a second product for a no-brainer power shutoff.
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DanHoug
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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| E1 wrote: |
Said it a few times, but…
There’s a great product opportunity for a specific, user-installable onboard fire extinguisher system for VW buses… and a second product for a no-brainer power shutoff. |
i can't imagine producing a bus-specific fire arresting product that would be implemented on 40+ year old vehicles with owners still running their original fuel lines, haven't tended to that 'gas smell' they've had for the past 3 years, and worst of all.... don't wash their engine. when their bus burns up, they'll cry foul and attempt sewage. or rather suing. we are a fickle bunch.
don't get me wrong, these manually fired Halon-type are great suppressant systems. but they are intended for SCCA cars that undergo a technical inspection before each event, are installed by enthusiasts and inspected for corrosion, clogged nozzles, and physical damage. this ain't for the 'set and forget' crowd. that's what the Blazecut is for, and we're seeing how (in)effective that is.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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a914622
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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YES there is a bottle extinguisher style that is activated like the blazecut but more power behind it.
When I was selling machine tools some materials needed the system to get insurance . Some systems added 5-10k to the machine. Probably why you done see them in the automotive ind. a google search shows 5-6 companies now selling machine tool extinguishers.
Additionally air craft still use a halon system. Again they are spendy.. I think a 10oz is like 300 bucks.
And yes I can’t believe the money spent on tinsel for the vanagons wile fuel lines are engorged. I would think an all metal replacement would be best👍
Jeff
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a914622
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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Ops forgot
The machine tool systems used a pressure switch/relay . Bottle full up to pressure power switch on. Bottle empty, no pressure, power off. I don’t think that would be to hard to do right at the battery or at the starter.
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Sodo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
| i'll bet that at -20F i'm drawing at least 300-400 amps, maybe more, trying to start a cold engine. i'll have to measure it some stupid cold day, coming up shortly i imagine. |
I'd like to see that test.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
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Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| DanHoug wrote: |
| i'll bet that at -20F i'm drawing at least 300-400 amps, maybe more, trying to start a cold engine. i'll have to measure it some stupid cold day, coming up shortly i imagine. |
I'd like to see that test. |
yeah, i'll pull some amp readings here when it cools down. the data might stop me from yammerin' some shite. or it might make me a god!
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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zerotofifty
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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Despite this thread's title, the discussion has little about fire prevention.
The fire prevention issues are easy to deal with, and are pretty basic. Good hoses, good hose clamps, no cracked injectors, eliminate the gasoline bulkhead fitting, safe wires, proper fusing. Get these all correct and you go a long way towards fire prevention, much more so than with fancy fire extinguishing systems, fuel and battery cut offs.
Do take care of the basics, then drive with peace of mind, all the other extinguishing things come second.  |
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markswagen
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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our fire l believe was caused by those plastic fuel injector rails.
as they were the ONLY un-upgraded part of the system.
l have a plan to solve the other issue, testing is required.
| zerotofifty wrote: |
Despite this thread's title, the discussion has little about fire prevention.
The fire prevention issues are easy to deal with, and are pretty basic. Good hoses, good hose clamps, no cracked injectors, eliminate the gasoline bulkhead fitting, safe wires, proper fusing. Get these all correct and you go a long way towards fire prevention, much more so than with fancy fire extinguishing systems, fuel and battery cut offs.
Do take care of the basics, then drive with peace of mind, all the other extinguishing things come second. |
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619 201 0310 |
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E1
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Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: One way to prevent engine fires |
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Regardless of the thread title, the OP was asking about stopping a fire — or at least, preventing it from getting worse.
| DanHoug wrote: |
| E1 wrote: |
Said it a few times, but…
There’s a great product opportunity for a specific, user-installable onboard fire extinguisher system for VW buses… and a second product for a no-brainer power shutoff. |
i can't imagine producing a bus-specific fire arresting product that would be implemented on 40+ year old vehicles with owners still running their original fuel lines, haven't tended to that 'gas smell' they've had for the past 3 years, and worst of all.... don't wash their engine. when their bus burns up, they'll cry foul and attempt sewage. or rather suing. we are a fickle bunch.
don't get me wrong, these manually fired Halon-type are great suppressant systems. but they are intended for SCCA cars that undergo a technical inspection before each event, are installed by enthusiasts and inspected for corrosion, clogged nozzles, and physical damage. this ain't for the 'set and forget' crowd. that's what the Blazecut is for, and we're seeing how (in)effective that is. |
Very different application, but same end result we’d all hope for…
Tech inspection need not apply, and by the way, in SCCA as mentioned all the inspector looks for is an intact system without obvious flaws, and a full extinguisher bottle. They’re not fire experts *at all*, that’s not really what they do… they’re mostly focused on mechanical safety, current belts, proper fuel line and connections, etc.
I don’t subscribe to the liability argument, any more than Blazecut (or the Element units) which as you’ve said are specific in what they can/can’t do.
The web is full of systems used on RVs, Jeeps, whatever…
All I’m envisioning is any system, automatic or user-activated, that keeps a van from burning down — and especially if any other option might well be available. It’d be reasonably easy for an enterprising fire systems manufacturer to compose a ready-to-install system for whatever type of vehicle that needs one, there’s nothing special about Vanagons in doing this.
Like this, as one example used in far dirtier environments than most van use:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HD6p0vJG-Ss&pp=ygUXZW5naW5lIGJheSBmaXJlIHN5c3RlbXM%3D
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AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." — Colin Chapman |
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