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Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing
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Jooknon
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

Has anyone else out there ever had their clutch throw out bearing go out on them?

Mine has been making a whining noise since March and now I'm trying to figure out long it might last or if its a "stop driving and fix now" kind of thing?

The whine only happens while driving and I let off the gas. I tried to get a recording of it, but it wasnt very successful with all the other road noises.

Any help is much appreciated.

I do have the Bentley manuals and am trying to make sense of it and exactly how difficult it would be to pull the tranny. Are there any tips or tricks that I should now?
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Joshwa
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

I've replaced my throw out bearing, but while my engine and transmission were both out. I know that you can pull the transmission and leave the engine in place, but you'll need to buy or build a support bridge for the engine, since it will only be supported on the passenger side mount. Other than that, you need to disconnect, rear and drivers side support, mechanical rpm, trumpet extension support arm, starter wiring, axles, and shift linkage.
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Jooknon
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

Joshwa wrote:
but you'll need to buy or build a support bridge for the engine, since it will only be supported on the passenger side mount.

Ah. I was wondering what the fancy VW brackets were that the book had.
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jjvincent
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

You can also use a cherry picker, floor jack and a couple of ratchet straps to accomplish the same thing that the factory does. Just be creative.
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Jooknon
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

jjvincent wrote:
You can also use a cherry picker, floor jack and a couple of ratchet straps to accomplish the same thing that the factory does. Just be creative.


Excellent. Thanks!

Any ideas how long of a job, in hours, were talking? For the record I am mechanically inclined and done a lot of things. Just never dropped a tranny before.

I don't have the book with me to check, but does the bearing need to pressed in?

Thanks
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

No, it shouldn't need to be pressed in. I didn't have to. Just slipped on snug. I'm pretty slow, so it would probably take me all day.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

Is the sleeve something that needs to be replaced each time the bearing is replaced?
Or is it one of those "you should do it while you're in there" kind of things?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

From your original claim of it only making noise when letting of the gas doesn't sound like a TO bearing. When they are going out, they make noise when you have your foot on the clutch and it's not dependent on vehicle speed. Normally when you think it's a TO bearing, you are sitting still, someone is standing outside of the car and your partner pushes in on the clutch. A bad TO bearing will be quiet when you have your foot off the clutch because there should be a few thousands of a gap between it and the fingers on the pressure plate. Essentially, it's just sitting there doing nothing while you are driving.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

jjvincent wrote:
From your original claim of it only making noise when letting of the gas doesn't sound like a TO bearing. When they are going out, they make noise when you have your foot on the clutch and it's not dependent on vehicle speed. Normally when you think it's a TO bearing, you are sitting still, someone is standing outside of the car and your partner pushes in on the clutch. A bad TO bearing will be quiet when you have your foot off the clutch because there should be a few thousands of a gap between it and the fingers on the pressure plate. Essentially, it's just sitting there doing nothing while you are driving.


Shoot. You know I just had that thought today as I was reading thru some threads on the T4 UK forum. Now I cant find that thread again, nor remember the name of that other piece that I was considering. I'll try get a recording/video of the noise today and see if that helps.
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

OK here is a recording of me driving 60 miles an hour in 5th gear.

The first 13 seconds are me holding the clutch all the way in a easing it out just a bit til it starts to make the whining noise.

Then the rest is my accelerating then letting off the gas, and you can hear the whine real loud.


Link


As this point I'm thinking its either the whole clutch assembly needs to be replaced or the layshaft bearings are failing.

The noise is predominately heard in 3-5 gears, loudest in 5th. I can't quite hear it in 1-2 but maybe that's just due to engine noise.

Anyone have any ideas which item it might be?
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

Strange. One "guess" could be that the clutch release lever is resting on clutch fingers after disengaging the clutch. Except that I would expect it to make noise whenever the clutch was out and the engine was running.
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

It sounds like a bearing in the transmission and most likely a layshaft. It's load related. The small gear on the final drive is on the layshaft. So, that layshaft is loaded in one direction or the other depending on accel or decel. Since that's driving the big gear, it's loaded one way or another too, so that could be a carrier bearing also.

It could also be the final drive. MK1 and MK2 VW's used to knock off part of the reverse idler when someone would rush to put it in reverse. That piece would rest in the bottom of the gearbox right where the large final drive gear is. It would run through the final drive and thus, only a noise on decel. If it wasn't that damaged, I could grind out the bad spot with a die grinder. Depending on where the drain is on your transmission, you might be able to take out the plug and see if the big gear is OK.

First thing I'd do is drain it and see what the oil looks like. Brass is OK but silver is not.

No matter what, that transmission is going to have to come out.

I thought I read somewhere years ago on the internets that there was a bearing failure that was common on the EV manual transmission.

Also, since you just bought it, I bet the PO knows exactly what was wrong and decided to not put any money in it. This is something that happens all of the time. Just like when I was growing up and a customer had enough because their car needed some major repair. Then 1 month later a new owner brings the same car in and we'd have to break them the bad news.
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

jjvincent wrote:
First thing I'd do is drain it and see what the oil looks like. Brass is OK but silver is not.


This was my first plan of action, hopefully I can get to it this weekend.


jjvincent wrote:

Also, since you just bought it, I bet the PO knows exactly what was wrong and decided to not put any money in it.


I'm always under the assumptions that the PO never tells the full story. I've talked to the kid a few times and he was up front about the noise from the beginning, said some VW shop in Oregon he was at told him it was the thrust bearing. So that's what I assumed. I don't remember the name of the shop off hand, would have to dig thru all the receipts.

jjvincent wrote:

Since that's driving the big gear, it's loaded one way or another too, so that could be a carrier bearing also.


So then I ask, are these bearings replaceable or is it just easier/better to just replace the transmission.

Thanks for the help
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

Carrier bearings are tapered roller. Without the shop manual in front of me, you'd probably have to set them upon replacement. As for the layshaft and mainshaft bearings, those are probably roller bearings that are pressed in and you could get away with just pressing in new ones. Without it apart, it's a guess.

I'd first look for a used one just because if you decide to fix the transmission yourself, you better have a shop manual and look at it first.

As for used, there are 5 listings on car-part.com. One is in TN for $350. So that's the closest to you. If I could get one for $350 plus shipping, then I'd buy it. After that, then use your existing one as a weekend project just to see what is wrong with it.
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

Thanks. I do have the manual and looks like quite the in depth job to change those bearings.

And thanks for helping find a donor transmission. I'll have a talk with the wife and see about getting one.

to be continued...
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

So I drained the manual transmission fluid/gear oil yesterday and found the following pieces of bearings. Crying or Very sad Look familiar to anyone? A friend says the look like needle bearings, which according the diagrams there are quite a few of them in the transmission. So no telling which one it is without disassembly.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Good news is I could only find pieces that look like bearings and no pieces of gear teeth. Bad news is now I'm pretty sure I need a tranny rebuild.

Anyone know of a transmission rebuild shop in St Louis that'll do VW's?
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

That's a bummer but that's the tour we sign up for when getting into these old vehicles.

Might be best to just source a good used tranny and have any shop install it. That is major bearing failure and there is likely some collateral damage somewhere which could make a rebuild very costly. Avoid going down the rabbit hole.

Maybe post a "want ad" in the classified section as there is bound to be someone with a KNOWN good unit for a reasonable price.
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 3:51 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

Agreed, I suspect that box is junk, or a very expensive rebuild. Be careful when shopping for a box, there are a lot of different ratios available and the common ones (at least in the UK) are very short, built to manage the very underpowered 1.9 and 2.4 diesel engines. Think 4000rpm at 75mph short.

If you drop the box yourself, drain the oil, remove the gearbox extension that runs behind the box, support the engine oil pan on a bit of wood on a jack and use an engine joist to drop the transmisson. Those transmissions are very big and heavy, I wouldn't attempt one without a hoist.
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

The good part is that in the US there's only the i5 gas motor. So, you are pretty much limited to one.

The problem is that when the bearing is coming apart, it most likely has spun the race in the case or on the shaft, thus ruining one or another. You could attempt to take it apart because you have nothing to lose. You never know, it might not be that hard or just a bearing change. If not, you buy the used one.
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Throw out (release) Bearing Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

I think I'll be shopping for a used good transmission now. I'll go post up on the classifieds right now.

I'll let you know how it goes.
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