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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:02 am Post subject: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
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Okay so I had my own valve tappet noise over the past weeks and I could not id exactly where the noise was coming from 'cept it was on Cylinders 1 or 2.
This is on the 2.1 WBX.
Just for info I did do the MMO treatment at the start and then changed the grade of oil down to 15w-40 from 20w-50 and added another 16 ounces.
I reset Cylinder #2 tappets to .005 mechanical lash setting and did the test drive to see if they would pump up. The noise went away for a bit almost right away, but then came back with a vengence a week later. (I reset the tappets back to 2 turns after zero lash after the test drive.)
So in the past two days I was able to hear finally that it was Cyl. #1 that was making the noise. I tried a stethoscope to listen to the tappets, but I couldn't hear any tapping through it as I have done on other engines. You could definitely hear it without the stethoscope! Still trying to figure that out?
Anyway, yesterday the noise became more apparent it was cylinder #1.
So I went under to adjust the tappets to .005 to see if they would pump up.
I had some problems getting the feeling of "Zero Lash" after loosening the adjustment screws. The tappets were full of oil and apparently had enough pressure in them to keep pushing the rocker arms against the valve stems. That was even with the screws all the way loose.
After trying for about 45 minutes without getting them away from the valve stems i said screw it-literally.
I screwed the adjustment screws in 2 turns and started rotating the engine over by hand to see if they would re-adjust to the screw pressure.
I was thinking the worst case being the retaining snap rings were broken on the tappets and that being the reason for the noise and fact I couldn't get the zero lash because the push rods were not able to move into the head of the tappet.
I mean the valve springs were compressing each time I made contact with the adjusting screws...that a new one for me.
One thing that was making me worry was that the Rocker Arm for the Intake Valve was literally jumping over when I first made contact with the valve stem. it was under some pressure from the tappet.
After a few complete cycles of piston strokes on all the cylinders by watching the valves I tried again and wow- I could feel they had moved.
So I did the adjustment again and it actually worked this time.
That Intake Rocker Arm was still "jumping" when I made first contact though.
Pull the dam adjusting screws out all the way and take a look at them.
This is what I found.
Cyl. 1 Intake
Cyl. 2 Exhaust
Cyl. 1 Exhaust and Intake
Cyl. 1 Exhaust and Intake - refaced
Lazy Man's lathe and 400 grit black oxide sandpaper.
At a cost of $12.95 per screw it was worth it to try refacing them and it worked.
I was under the impression that these adjusting screws were "hardened" steel, but I was able to use sandpaper to reface them.
The end result after a few miles of driving is no more noise thankfully from the tappets. Silence is golden!
There's been some other oil related quirks i've been working on at the same time like a one time drop in oil pressure which has me very concerned.
I added a mechanical oil pressure gauge to the engine on a new manifold for the VDO Sending unit so I could watch the oil pressure as I tinkered around and also to confirm what the VDO gauge was saying.
It's been a ongoing concern for the past week and you know how it is when you work on something and it's a problem when you solve it you feel good.
After getting this tappet noise and new gauge installed and feeling good about everything after test driving it and everything working great...
...the dam low oil pressure light went off and the dam buzzer came on after I jumped in and drove off! Arghh _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.
Last edited by Steve M. on Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4715 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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do you think those are OEM screws? they are so much lighter in color than mine were from 2 different engines. and none of them had that much wear, even on the 245k mile engine. they look soft.
-dan |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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DanHoug wrote: |
do you think those are OEM screws? they are so much lighter in color than mine were from 2 different engines. and none of them had that much wear, even on the 245k mile engine. they look soft.
-dan |
I was thinking that too.
This engine was a rebuild. I think it was done by a rebuild shop rather then an owner/mechanic. The serial number is sanded off and a company stamp in place of the serial number.
The bottom end I was happy with the oil pressure until last week when I had a fluctuation in oil pressure.
Putting a Android phone borescope inside the cylinders I can still see the honing marks and they look relatively fresh...
I'm guessing here that these were not "new" heads. They probably did a valve job on some old heads and maybe put these cheap screws in. I'm guessing I'll find the usual crack between the valves on old VW's.
I just helicoiled the oil drain plug hole as the bottom 3 threads were stripped.
And the P.O. went cheap on coolant as there is water corrosion on the inside of the water jacket.
My biggest hope is they did use new connecting rod bolts!
Other then that all things considered I've been happy with the engine.
I'm not going to change it until it's not running any more! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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The low oil light was poor connection at the terminal...whew! 😆
Of course it had to happen just after I showered and had clean clothes on! 😂😂😂 _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50254
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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I would not be surprised to find that the screws end up wearing very fast. My experience is that quality screws are needed here. I had a lot of problems with these screws when I was first trying to get my Syncro on the road 25 years ago. Couldn't find any that were worth putting it. For a couple of years I just replaced them every oil change. Eventually got a good set and never had a problem again.
You may want to check that the ends of your valve stems are nice a flat. They may have ended up being concave and will thus cause rapid wear of the screws. You can touch them up with a Dremil. You of course must cover everything well to keep the grindings for getting in places you don't want them to be. I stuff the valve box full of oily rags, covering everything but the one valve stem end I am then working on. |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10239 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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Steve,
That's a great solution with resurfacing them. I also found I had a few that were just whaled on and only bought a couple after discovering the price. I saved the old ones and carry one as several years ago a couple arrived at my door via the Rescue Squad app with a lifter noise that turned out to be a wrecked screw. I got them on their way literally with baling wire and something I can't recall.
Just added this to my list, to resurface a full set from my spare engine, and do a spring valve adjust with them. Can't believe I never even thought about what you did - thanks for all the great things you post, and in advance for what you'll think of next (!).
Doug _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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0to60in6min Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006 Posts: 3414 Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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NICE ! ! thank you for the tip...
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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Wildthings wrote: |
I would not be surprised to find that the screws end up wearing very fast. My experience is that quality screws are needed here. I had a lot of problems with these screws when I was first trying to get my Syncro on the road 25 years ago. Couldn't find any that were worth putting it. For a couple of years I just replaced them every oil change. Eventually got a good set and never had a problem again.
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Are the original screws case hardened or something similar? _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
I would not be surprised to find that the screws end up wearing very fast. My experience is that quality screws are needed here. I had a lot of problems with these screws when I was first trying to get my Syncro on the road 25 years ago. Couldn't find any that were worth putting it. For a couple of years I just replaced them every oil change. Eventually got a good set and never had a problem again.
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Are the original screws case hardened or something similar? |
I honestly do not know to what level the adjustment screws are hardened.
I do know that you want them to be softer than the valve stem.
One of the two has to give if push comes to shove, and to have a valve stem mushroomed by a hard adjuster would not be a good thing at all.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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djkeev wrote: |
Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Are the original screws case hardened or something similar? |
I do know that you want them to be softer than the valve stem.
One of the two has to give if push comes to shove, and to have a valve stem mushroomed by a hard adjuster would not be a good thing at all.
Dave |
Ah, right; one or the other has to be "sacrificial". And I now see Steves' comment: "I was under the impression that these adjusting screws were "hardened" steel, but I was able to use sandpaper to reface them."
Just curious. Nice to see some parts saved. I recall considering getting new adjuster screws at one point and being somewhat surprised at the price.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50254
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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The original screws are quite hard, can't say that they are as hard as the valve stems or not, but they barely wear. Low quality soft aftermarket screws can and will damage the valve stems once they have become worn and further more they will damage the valve guides because they a placing undue side forces on the stems. |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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Wildthings wrote: |
I would not be surprised to find that the screws end up wearing very fast. My experience is that quality screws are needed here. I had a lot of problems with these screws when I was first trying to get my Syncro on the road 25 years ago. Couldn't find any that were worth putting it. For a couple of years I just replaced them every oil change. Eventually got a good set and never had a problem again.
You may want to check that the ends of your valve stems are nice a flat. They may have ended up being concave and will thus cause rapid wear of the screws. You can touch them up with a Dremil. You of course must cover everything well to keep the grindings for getting in places you don't want them to be. I stuff the valve box full of oily rags, covering everything but the one valve stem end I am then working on. |
I agree completely.
In fact no one has noticed it yet, but I did not do a perfect job of getting all of the pitting out. There is still some remains of the original pitting on some of them.
Looking at these screws I said these are junk metal and they are just going to do this again so I thought it wasn't worth getting them perfect, but good enough to get the job done.
I know I am going to be on the look out for good screws when I see a rocker arms open.
Also these are VW heads...do you think they used the same screws on other models just because of basic costs consciousness across the board.
So maybe a walk through a salvage yard may be worth the time if we knew if we could find them.
As the sourcing of less expensive parts has progressed over the years it would be nice if they used a metal that was better quality then recycled table lamps! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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IdahoDoug wrote: |
Steve,
That's a great solution with resurfacing them. I also found I had a few that were just whaled on and only bought a couple after discovering the price. I saved the old ones and carry one as several years ago a couple arrived at my door via the Rescue Squad app with a lifter noise that turned out to be a wrecked screw. I got them on their way literally with baling wire and something I can't recall.
Just added this to my list, to resurface a full set from my spare engine, and do a spring valve adjust with them. Can't believe I never even thought about what you did - thanks for all the great things you post, and in advance for what you'll think of next (!).
Doug |
Thanks Doug! Wait 'til you see my what I'm working on! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
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Okay found a solution.
They are VW Part Number: 022.109.451
and you can find this part number on many engines. There are too many to list here!
There is a metal cap that fits over the end of the screw which is protecting the end of the screw.
And it is only $17.00 for the set.
Van Cafe Valve Adjuster Screw "Lash Caps"
http://www.van-cafe.com/page_2554_719/valve-adjuster-lash-cap-kit
GoWesty has them too for $20.00
http://www.gowesty.com/product/cylinder-heads/19373/lash-cap-set-for-valve-adjusters-
So depending on your preference there is a solution.
When you look at the picture your going to see these rectangular plates with holes in them. They are spacers to go under the rocker arm assembly to bring the shaft/fulcrum axis back out to compensate for the thickness of the cap on the end of the screw.
Another 20 bucks spent!
However, I still want an original set! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50254
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
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Lash caps fit over the ends of the valve stems, they pretty much stop wear to the end of the stems, they may well offer some reduction in the adjuster screw wear and probably stop the valve guide wear caused by badly worn screws. They can also be used to "lengthen" older valve stems making up for hundreds of thousands of miles and several valve jobs worth of wear.
You can buy M10x1 elephant foot adjusters, but they are pretty rare. There is a guy on the Bay forum who has bought them in bulk from Europe from time to time. I understand that one of the Ford engines uses them as well, but don't have the details.
I haven't a clue as to whether Type 1 rockers and elephant foot adjusters could be substituted for WBXer ones. Type 1's and Porsches use M8 screws verse M10 and you can still get real Porsche M8 elephant foot adjusters, but you will pay dearly for them. |
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AndyBees Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008 Posts: 2310 Location: Southeast Kentucky
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
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Steve M.
The adjusting screws in my 83, 2.0 Air-cool engine, look pretty much like those in your photos. I purchased the Van in 85 with 49k miles on it. At about 190k miles, I installed new heads. When I moved the rocker arms over to the new heads was when I discovered the condition of the adjusting screws.
I'm just curious as to how far down the screw is the hardness. _________________ '84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
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It's doubtful that any of the surface hardening is left on the adjusters you modified. To find out if steel has been hardened or not, run a file across the surface. If it leaves a mark, soft, if it doesn't, hard.
Lash caps are available through Scat and other vendors for half of what was mentioned. [url] http://www.scatvw.com/product/hardened-valve-lash-caps/[/url]
I just bought a set of Scat ratio rockers and was surprised to find 10mm, swivel foot adjusters in the set. These are the Ford Courier style. I'm not sure if they are available separately. All the swivels I've used in the past from them have been 8mm.
By the way, a full set of ratio rockers with adjusters and a solid shaft from Scat is less than a full set of screws from VW. _________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
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AndyBees wrote: |
Steve M.
The adjusting screws in my 83, 2.0 Air-cool engine, look pretty much like those in your photos. I purchased the Van in 85 with 49k miles on it. At about 190k miles, I installed new heads. When I moved the rocker arms over to the new heads was when I discovered the condition of the adjusting screws.
I'm just curious as to how far down the screw is the hardness. |
Yes you could do that, those were one of the years I found to be with the same part numbers for the screw.
From what I have seen from the websites there are some 9mm screws and 10mm screws out there. They obviously will not fit, but you need to know which size you have.
I think the 9mm were on the 1.9 wbx's.
Mine are the 10mm size.
I do not know how far down the length of the screw the hardness was applied if that is what you are thinking. I would assume the whole screw was hardened.
Without any design documentation or a whole set of known oem quality screws and a Rockwell hardness tester to compare against replacement screws available there is no way I would know how good they are until they are put into use. The only way to tell if you have "good" screws is by seeing how they look after being removed. If they look like mine they are definitely not good! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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