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syncroserge
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2005
Posts: 571
Location: Okotos, Alberta, Canada
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 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:43 pm Post subject: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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Autopsy might be too strong a word..I did not look for a smoking gun, just thought I would share..
Anyways that's what happens when you leave dead parts around a man with a grinder and some spare time 
Before..
Friction surface removed..
Ring gear assembly removed..Wo..that's a lot of springs..spacers between springs are plastic
All that you see or seem is but a spring within a spring..within a spring..
Feels like something interesting inside the core..
Indeed..two little gears are nylon..
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DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 5920
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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very cool!!!
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10834
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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Awesome.
Thats a lot of monkeybusiness.
How is all that stuff lubed?
How was it 'dead' ?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17941
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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| Sodo wrote: |
How was it 'dead' ? |
they chatter and (i'm gonna fuck this up) they get play in the "face" where the disc contacts. basically the "face" wobbles.
When I have seen these fail, it's usually for noise more than anything.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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syncroserge
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2005
Posts: 571
Location: Okotos, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Awesome.
Thats a lot of monkeybusiness.
How is all that stuff lubed?
How was it 'dead' ? |
It was making the usual "handful of nuts in a coffee can" noise of when they fail.
A lot more rotational play than a good one.
The spring assembly and the core with the small gears are generously filled with grease.
Appears to me to be thick molly type. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10834
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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| syncroserge wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
Awesome.
Thats a lot of monkeybusiness.
How is all that stuff lubed?
How was it 'dead' ? |
It was making the usual "handful of nuts in a coffee can" noise of when they fail.
A lot more rotational play than a good one.
The spring assembly and the core with the small gears are generously filled with grease.
Appears to me to be thick molly type. |
So they can't be opened/cleaned/maintained?
I wonder if you could drill some holes and shove all the old grease out, then weld up the holes?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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syncroserge
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2005
Posts: 571
Location: Okotos, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
How was it 'dead' ? |
they chatter and (i'm gonna fuck this up) they get play in the "face" where the disc contacts. basically the "face" wobbles.
When I have seen these fail, it's usually for noise more than anything. |
Exactly..they are suppose to fail in a way that gets you home i.e. the little plastic spacers
contact one another and allow it to be usable but it makes quite a ruckus ! |
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syncroserge
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2005
Posts: 571
Location: Okotos, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| So they can't be opened/cleaned/maintained? |
No, it's all riveted and crimped together.
VW had some issues in the beginning with a lot of failures but supposedly re-engineered it.
Issues were with Sachs and not LUK from memory, but not certain. |
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jimf909
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 8256
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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I had no idea. I just assumed they were heavier.
Is this a three-phase bent spring DMF? It looks like it matches the wikipedia description:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-mass_flywheel
Three-phase bent spring
This curved spring consists of an outer and two inner arc springs with different elastic characteristics connected in series. This category of bent spring uses the two concepts together: parallel and series connection in order to ensure optimal torsional compensation for each value of torque.
_________________
- Jim
| Butcher wrote: |
| This is the main fault with DIY'ers, they get together on these forums and pat themselves on their backs spreading bad information. |
Guilty as charged.
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10834
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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| syncroserge wrote: |
Exactly..they are suppose to fail in a way that gets you home i.e. the little plastic spacers
contact one another and allow it to be usable but it makes quite a ruckus ! |
Plastic fails?
Where in your pics - are the 'failed' components visible?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2684
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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Syncroserge, thanks for your free time and sharing your work.
The DMF is a wear item just about like all the other components of a vehicle. As the miles roll up, the backward-forward "play" between the two halves increases. At what point a DMF begins to make noise, I have no clue.
I preemptively replaced the DMF in my 2000 Jetta at 291k miles while I was doing other major maintenance. It was not making any noise. The one in it now has about 100k miles on it and is quiet (my son owns it).
The DMF in my 03 Jetta TDI has over 275k miles on it. No noise.
I've changed a good number of them in TDIs and a couple in BMWs.. all were high mileage.
I installed a DMF in my 84 Vanagon with the ALH engine ....... no more rattling noise at idle in neutral and no more beating the hell out of the transmission. Shifting gears is very smooth.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI, two trips to Alaska, 2014 & 16. 1989 Tin-top unmolested.
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine, seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. 1975 Bay hopeful. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17941
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Dual Mass Flywheel Autopsy |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
Syncroserge, thanks for your free time and sharing your work.
The DMF is a wear item just about like all the other components of a vehicle. . |
yes, thanks for cutting it open! I have seen them "windowed" in training sessions.
would also like to add... they are impossible to machine like a traditional flywheel. you can't stabilize the face to cut them
so basically, it's suicide to do a clutch and not replace the flywheel at the same time
and to derail things, because why not? check out this carnage.
kid took his parents S60R for a rip and wanted to know what happened when you went from 6th to 1st on the highway at 129 mph:
Sorry for the shitty pix....
the answer is you fucking destroy everything 
that was a 13k bill.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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