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What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers?
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livingskies
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:05 pm    Post subject: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

This is for the 1974 VW Westfalia. One front caliper was frozen, with the pistons rusted to the bores. I disassembled the caliper and checked it out. The pistons cleaned up well, but the outer bore (the part outside of the rubber O ring) was quite rusty and pitted. I cleaned them up with wet dry sandpaper, but they did not come completely shiny. They should be OK for a while, but I would like to have replacement calipers on hand. Just the kits won't be enough to fix them properly. While I'm at it, I would like to replace the calipers on both sides. The pads are still like new, and the problem likely occurred as a result of too little use of the vehicle.

The calipers on the bus have the Ate logo on them. The parts suppliers want to know whether I need Ate or Girling calipers. When I look at them on line, the Girling calipers look the same as the Ate calipers. Maybe the on line pictures are inaccurate and they are not really the same???

Anyway, can someone tell me the difference between the Ate and Girling calipers?

Also, the parts suppliers list left and right side calipers. Both sides look the same to me. What is the difference from left to right?

Thanks for any help with this.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

Bleeder screw locations can be different side to side with regards to them being mirror locations of each other, some Girling calipers have lower and upper bleeder screws just to keep it interesting... Wink
The internal pad springs and shims between the two brands can be different as well, even though they fit the same vehicle.
So, buy a drivers front and a passenger side front , new anti-rattle clips if yours are toast, and any other hardware you inspect and find marginal. ATE, since you have them on your Bus
How old are the flexible rubber brake lines?
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livingskies
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

I'm posting a few pictures of the right side caliper, to give a better sense of what's what. Maybe someone can help me with an exact description or part numbers of what I need to order to replace these.

As you can see, the caliper (second picture) is marked Ate. But it also has two bleed screws, one top and one bottom. It looks identical to on line pictures of what they are calling Girling system calipers.

This makes we wonder that when the parts guys are asking whether it is an Ate caliper or a Girling caliper that they may not know what they are asking. Could it be a Girling system that uses various brands of interchangeable calipers - Ate and others? Or is there a difference.

I did replace the rubber line on that side while I had it apart, but I'm sure the line was not the problem. I also plan to replace the rubber line on the other side - already bought that. The pistons were clearly seized onto the bores and it took a lot of internal air pressure and various other tricks to break them loose. The clip and pins and pads are in good condition and can be reused.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

if they say ATE then get a set of ATE from the same period. 1973 - 1979 is different than 1971-72. ATE parts are much easier to come by than Girling parts. I'd ask someone like Ken Madsen at TheBusco, or Avery's Air Cooled etc for a good used set then rebuild them.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:08 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

The parts guys are asking about ATE/Girling because that's what it sez on their screens.
Very seldom do parts guys know anything about the parts they order for you.
ATE/Girling calipers are very similar, but use different hardware and seals.
The calipers are Left&Right because the upper and lower mounting bolts are
different, and the fat (locating) bolt is supposed to be on top (or maybe bottom,
I forget which, consult your service manual, I personally don't think it makes any
difference). All bus calipers since mid-71
are supposed to have both upper and lower bleed screws. Watch out for parts
guys trying to give you early Vanagon calipers, which are the same except the brake
line attaches at the top of the caliper, rather in the middle.

Lookit this: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=556225
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livingskies
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

Just an update; may help someone else some time.

The frozen/rusted caliper is working well for the time being, since disassembly and freeing it up. The regular parts suppliers here in Canada can't supply rebuilt calipers or rebuild kits, without a lengthy wait time to bring them from the US or ??

So, I ordered two new EMPI calipers, loaded with new pads and hardware. About the same price as the not readily available rebuilt units. Left and right sides the same part number, with the connection spot for the brake line in the middle (same as original on this bus), and top and bottom bleed screws. Hoping they are good quality. Maybe someone on the forum has experience with the EMPI units?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

I guess its a little late (unless the EMPI ones look like crap and you want to return) but I got a pair of ATE rebuilds from Scott at German Supply a couple of months ago...

https://germansupply.com/front-brake-caliper-rebuilt-right-bus-73-79.html

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

livingskies wrote:
Just an update; may help someone else some time.

The frozen/rusted caliper is working well for the time being, since disassembly and freeing it up. The regular parts suppliers here in Canada can't supply rebuilt calipers or rebuild kits, without a lengthy wait time to bring them from the US or ??

So, I ordered two new EMPI calipers, loaded with new pads and hardware. About the same price as the not readily available rebuilt units. Left and right sides the same part number, with the connection spot for the brake line in the middle (same as original on this bus), and top and bottom bleed screws. Hoping they are good quality. Maybe someone on the forum has experience with the EMPI units?


Warning.....if you un-froze these calipers by putting any solvents or penetrating oils in them like PB blaster or liauid wrench....they are now officially junk until you clean them out and put new seals in them

The sealing materials inside of all calipers, master cylinders and wheel cylinders are EPDM. All of the solvents mentioned ....including and especially brake cleaner. eat that rubber type.

Get a kkt and rebuild them. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

Yes, I knew that. I used brake fluid as a lubricant to wet sand and clean the rusty parts. The bus will get new calipers once they arrive. No leaks or issues in the meantime.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:49 am    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
livingskies wrote:
Just an update; may help someone else some time.

The frozen/rusted caliper is working well for the time being, since disassembly and freeing it up. The regular parts suppliers here in Canada can't supply rebuilt calipers or rebuild kits, without a lengthy wait time to bring them from the US or ??

So, I ordered two new EMPI calipers, loaded with new pads and hardware. About the same price as the not readily available rebuilt units. Left and right sides the same part number, with the connection spot for the brake line in the middle (same as original on this bus), and top and bottom bleed screws. Hoping they are good quality. Maybe someone on the forum has experience with the EMPI units?


Warning.....if you un-froze these calipers by putting any solvents or penetrating oils in them like PB blaster or liauid wrench....they are now officially junk until you clean them out and put new seals in them

The sealing materials inside of all calipers, master cylinders and wheel cylinders are EPDM. All of the solvents mentioned ....including and especially brake cleaner. eat that rubber type.

Get a kkt and rebuild them. Ray


I have my caliper off. I've finally unstuck a stubborn piston and took it out. (I'm plannng to take the other one out tomorrow) I used PB blaster to help get the stuck piston out. I want to clean off the caliper before rebuilding it (new seals, hardware etc) Is it ok to dunk the caliper in my parts cleaner to start (without the pistons & bleeder screws) and/or clean it in my sandblaster (covering the piston holes)?
I wasn't anticipating this much of a project when I took them off, but here I am...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

Yes....as long as you are installing new rubber parts you can use any solvent you want. Yes...sandblasting is ok....as long as you cover the bore holes as you noted.

Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Yes....as long as you are installing new rubber parts you can use any solvent you want. Yes...sandblasting is ok....as long as you cover the bore holes as you noted.

Ray


Thank you, Ray!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

BusBerd wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Yes....as long as you are installing new rubber parts you can use any solvent you want. Yes...sandblasting is ok....as long as you cover the bore holes as you noted.

Ray


Thank you, Ray!


And do a final cleaning in denatured alchahol. That is what we use in the lab before building any of our test calipers and masters.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

I have Girling calipers. I need new brake pads. I want to get new retaining hardware for the pads too. All of the photos on the auto parts sites of the hardware for Girling caliper do not show the calipers using retaining rods. I do not understand what keeps the metal retaining spring on the pads without those rods. My Girling calipers have retaining rods on them now. It looks like the ATE set up. Wondering if a PO used ATE hardware on my Girling calipers.
How is the bake pad retaining hardware different from the Girling and ATE calipers?
Thanks!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

BusBerd wrote:
How is the bake pad retaining hardware different from the Girling and ATE calipers?


Lot's of brake info in this thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=556225

I don't think ATE pins would work in a Girling caliper.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

kreemoweet wrote:
BusBerd wrote:
How is the bake pad retaining hardware different from the Girling and ATE calipers?


Lot's of brake info in this thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=556225

I don't think ATE pins would work in a Girling caliper.


Thanks for the post! lots of good info in the link to that thread.

My retaining pins definitly look like these ATE pins. There are no hairpins on the ends holding them in.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


this is my hardware:
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For the Girling hardware, most of the auto parts sites have a photo that does not show any retaining pins. Just the hairpins and the spreader spring.https://www.busdepot.com/13106

I am also missing these piston retaining plates that sit behind the pads. I am missing them on both wheels. Any idea where to get 4 of them???
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


these are my old pads with no piston retaining plates behind them. The date stamped on the back is from '05. I did not do the install. I checked my records and I did bring it to a VW shop in town called Good Carma back in March of 2007 for a $333.58 brake job.:
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I am assuming the big circular "G" is an indication that they are indeed Girling calipers.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

Hardware kit at BusLab, but no plates. How long have you been
going without the plates? Perhaps they are not essential?

https://www.buslab.com/product-p/211698110.htm
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:42 am    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

We make the plates:

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https://germansupply.com/disc-brake-piston-retaining-plate-front-brakes-bus-vanagon-girling.html
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

kreemoweet wrote:
Hardware kit at BusLab, but no plates. How long have you been
going without the plates? Perhaps they are not essential?

https://www.buslab.com/product-p/211698110.htm

Cool, thanks!
I ordered some from Rockauto.com
The photo did not show the pins. If they come without the pins, I'll check out bus labs.

Buslab says that these are for Vanagon's 80-85.

Do I have the wrong calipers on my '77 bus?

Did a PO switch them out for some reason???
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: What is the difference between ATS and Girling Front Calipers? Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
We make the plates:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


https://germansupply.com/disc-brake-piston-retaining-plate-front-brakes-bus-vanagon-girling.html


Thanks, Scott!

Ordered!
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