CS motor will only turn 90°

[Lil Lulu]

Preparing to return this motor to the bus. Motor is on the stand. I thought I may as well get the distributor close before install. The damn motor will only turn 90° from ~tdc #4, clockwise to ~tdc #3, from what the rockers show. It comes to a hard metal sounding stop, not a friction feel, both clockwise @~tdc #3 then counter-clockwise to ~tdc#4. In total the crank turns 1/4 of a turn. Distributor and flywheel turn normally, about a quarter turn. I don’t want to turn it over with the distributor out in fear that the distributor drive pinion will push up and throw it out of whack. In the 90° turn, all of the pushrods move except #4 @~tdc.

Took this running motor out 3 years ago and it sat on the stand with no distributor, carbs, or alternator. All holes were plugged with newsprint so nothing could have gotten in. There’s no oil in the case now, but should be enough residual oil to turn, but only turns ~90° with the alternator pulley.

Man, am I stumped. Total surprise. Had this motor in and out of this bus and the orange one a couple of times with no problems.

Next I’ll take out the plugs and try to turn it. This doesn’t feel like compression tho. At first, I thought I left my flywheel stop gizmo in, but (duh) that wouldn’t let it turn at all.

Any other ideas?
_________________
'65 Beetle "Lil' Lulu"- Ruby Red
1600 stock from '71 bus

'72 Deluxe - Niagara Blue w/pastelwiess Camper Special 2L dual 40 Webers 002

'74 Hightop Weekender "Dixie" 1800 34 Del singles

[busdaddy]

Stuck valve?
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!

[Lil Lulu]

The feel is kinda like I would think it would be. Never had a stuck valve in 30 years of VW. This sat without oil all this time. Every time I moved it a little more would drain out. Stuck valve would probably be a guide problem, no?

Any test/remedy for this bd? Hope this doesn’t mean I have to dismantle the heads. The CS calls for no lash on valves, so everything is kinda tight anyway. Might it help to take them all loose and try to move things around by hand, maybe go taptap with a plastic mallet? I assembled the engine myself , so I know it pretty well.

Could a stuck valve be the result of no oil for awhile?

Thanks, as always.
_________________
'65 Beetle "Lil' Lulu"- Ruby Red
1600 stock from '71 bus

'72 Deluxe - Niagara Blue w/pastelwiess Camper Special 2L dual 40 Webers 002

'74 Hightop Weekender "Dixie" 1800 34 Del singles

[64 ragtop volks]

might try removing spark plugs, and pull off rocker arms so the push rods are not opening valves when you try to spin motor

[SGKent]

as suggested you can pull #4 plug. One alternative is to put a little propane flame on the head around #4. See if one of the valves is stuck. Don't cook it, just warm it up a little. If that frees it spray a little oil on the guides. That said, if the valve springs are old, one or more may be a little weak.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[Wildthings]

TDC #4 to TDC #3 is 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation.

[raygreenwood]

Remove the rockers. That requires virtually no real dismantling. You should go one set at a time so of it frees up rotation you know which valve set is sticking.

Ray

[Wildthings]

Use a straw on a spray can of penetrating oil and spray the valve stems right where they come out of the guides. If you take the rockers off as Ray suggests you can also use a soft punch and a 2# hammer to tap on the ends of the valve stems to see if they will pop loose.

[mikedjames]

[Lil Lulu]

I’m on this, this morning. Since these are HAM heads, I know he uses the best parts available and it should be ok if I can just massage it into life. Hopefully the penetrant and a few taps with a brass drift will free it up.

I’ll take the rocker assemblies off and spray with Aerocroil and wait a few hours before trying to free it. Engine only has about 40,000 miles on it. It’s my guess that it’s #4.

Again, as always, thanks.
_________________
'65 Beetle "Lil' Lulu"- Ruby Red
1600 stock from '71 bus

'72 Deluxe - Niagara Blue w/pastelwiess Camper Special 2L dual 40 Webers 002

'74 Hightop Weekender "Dixie" 1800 34 Del singles

[Shonandb]

Any bolts missing or seem to be an odd size, or is anything on the engine stand sticking out enough to catch the flywheel? If you have a scope/camera with a built in light, pull the spark plugs and look in each cylinder in case something like a loose nut fell in. If nothing obvious, try backing off the valve adjustment screws one at a time and see if anything changes. IF you still can't find anything obvious, the heads are going to have to come off for a good look inside.
_________________
*******************************
76 Westy with a 2.5L Subaru SOHC + Vanagon (010) Automatic Transaxle
Build & Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758760
Previous 1973 Panel Bus:
Click to view image

[vwmaniaman]

If you don't have the distributor in the hole yet. smack the drive gear down and try turning it again. I have had this happen to me. The gear on the crank can lift the distributor drive gear and jam it. Don't force it or you will ruin the gear on the crankshaft.
_________________
Working on a VW is like fun with a friend!
65 Beetle
75 Westy "Pumpkin Van"
86 Westy "Brown Betty"
87 Cabrio

[Lil Lulu]

Removed the rocker assemblies and pushrods but still no move more than the 90° as before. So, probably not a valve problem? Removed fan belt and alternator spins free. I Removed plugs so motor turns with the fan or flywheel, still same. The little click at the end of each movement seems to be coming from the left rear of the motor. The fan has no obstructions and the flywheel has no obstructions. Distributor is installed properly. Plugs were never out while it sat, so nothing could have fallen in. It was turned 90° on the stand a couple of times to make space for something.

This motor was running great three hours and 40 minutes before it went on the stand. The motor that came out last Thursday, an 1800, was beginning to make way more rod noise than I like. It’s an unknown quantity. Drove it for 20,000 miles tho.
_________________
'65 Beetle "Lil' Lulu"- Ruby Red
1600 stock from '71 bus

'72 Deluxe - Niagara Blue w/pastelwiess Camper Special 2L dual 40 Webers 002

'74 Hightop Weekender "Dixie" 1800 34 Del singles

[raygreenwood]

So, these will be classified under "just have to ask".....

Wasthis an automatic or manual transmission?

If it was automatic, is the transmission removed? Reason I ask is because if not, a bolt from the torque converter may be hanging up on the case.

If it's manual transmission, is the flywheel and clutch removed? Same thing.

Was it a mechanical fuel pump engine? Is so, even though I cannot see why it would happen, remove the fuel pump and fuel pump pushrod to make sure it's not hanging up on the cam.

All of the items just mentioned would cause a noise on the flywheel end.

Pull the fan off. Make sure nothing is caught in the back of the fan webs and lodging against the fan shroud.

Pull the distributor drive all the way out.

Pull the oil pump. Make sure that the idler shaft has not slipped and is not banging on the cam bolts. Also you can make sure that one of the four nuts on the oil pump is not loose and jamming on the cam gear.

Ray

[timvw7476]

Were this my problem, I'd pull the distributor drive (risking the waffle washer under it falling in the case) & see how it turns. I've seen Type IVs do some weird stuff involving the drive & crankshaft 'stick' when they are being positioned at various angles when prepping for install. Just my opinion, worth one waffle washer or the labor to retrieve it from the Type IV 'timing gear cavern'....

[Lil Lulu]

Thanks, Ray
This will be mated with an 002 that I just did a nosecone, input seal, and flange seal job on. Also had to fix the separated input shaft.

Clutch and flywheel are installed since I didn’t touch this motor while it was on the stand. It’s a VW T4 yoke. I can’t find any obstruction.

Electric fuel pump

Pulling the fan was my next move.

If I pull the distributor drive all the way out isn’t that a bitch to get back in right?

This is a Raby modified oil pump, so not sure if those parts are the same. I’ll look at all that under the fan stuff too.
_________________
'65 Beetle "Lil' Lulu"- Ruby Red
1600 stock from '71 bus

'72 Deluxe - Niagara Blue w/pastelwiess Camper Special 2L dual 40 Webers 002

'74 Hightop Weekender "Dixie" 1800 34 Del singles

[Lil Lulu]

Tim- When I put this distributor drive in, I used a good amount of grease so I have had luck with the oil slinger washer in the past.

It’s been a few years and I just can’t remember how to reinstall it.😐

Since the rockers are off, the heads are out of play, other than some kind of obstruction like Ray talks about, there’s really nothing else but the drive that moves outside the case.

Thanks
_________________
'65 Beetle "Lil' Lulu"- Ruby Red
1600 stock from '71 bus

'72 Deluxe - Niagara Blue w/pastelwiess Camper Special 2L dual 40 Webers 002

'74 Hightop Weekender "Dixie" 1800 34 Del singles

[raygreenwood]

[Lil Lulu]

Thanks, Ray. The distributor was removed from the engine when it went on the stand. It is the only thing that was moved or changed from a well-running engine.

Odd thing is, the distributor slides in all the way and from the outside at least, looks correct. Would this be possible if the drive was jammed?

I remember now that I had to set the engine at tdc#1 to install.

I had mushroomed lifters at tear-down on this case. The pushrods are out and I kinda wanted to pull the lifters anyway to look at the cam, so I’ll pull them regardless.
_________________
'65 Beetle "Lil' Lulu"- Ruby Red
1600 stock from '71 bus

'72 Deluxe - Niagara Blue w/pastelwiess Camper Special 2L dual 40 Webers 002

'74 Hightop Weekender "Dixie" 1800 34 Del singles

[raygreenwood]