[Solved] Major Electrical gremlin in 1972 camper - Need ideas

[DrElch]

Hi All,

I've got a Westfalia 1972 with a quite original and well electrical system.
It's been working just fine over the last few years.

However today the whole circuit died on me recently and I'm kinda lost in my diagnosis, so I would appreciate some ideas, where I could keep looking.

Initial Situation - A bad starter:

Just until a few days ago everything just worked fine.
Then all of a sudden my starter stopped working. It's a Hi-Torque starter that so far never made any trouble despite being ~10 years old.
Starting cold and warm didn't work anymore. The solenoid made a rattling clicking noise and that was that. I do have a Hot-Start Relay.
Strangely enough, if I jump start the bus with the help of my aux battery to my starter battery it just started nicely.

This certainly surprised me, since my stater battery has been charged fully and is not that old. So I thought, maybe some connection has been corroded or the starter might be dying on me.

That was my situation for a few days. It was definitely a very strange situation and I wanted to investigate that one further.


Investigating the problem - circuit dead

I wanted to start my investigation on the issue. So I have charged all my batteries properly at first and then I tried to start the car. I turned the ignition on and everything seemed normal (Keep that in mind). Then I tried to start and... again I got the rattling noise of the solenoid for a bit and then... Blackout. Everything went black.

All the dash lights went black, and everything else in the system too. Oops what has happened?
All lights are dark, it does not start, not even the smallest bulb in the instrument cluster lights up.

So I have checked the following first:

Starter Battery has 12,7V and has been fully charged.
AUX Battery has 12,7V and has been fully charged.
All Fuses in the fuse box are fine.
All flying fuses are fine.
Checked the battery cables, all fine.
Checked all the cables at the starter 30 connector. All fine.


Turning the Ignition Key to 15 did nothing.
Trying to start the car did nothing.
Light Switch: Nothing.
Wiper Switch: Nothing.
Interior light: Nothing.
Emergency flasher: Very strange noise from the Relay. Finally a first hint.

I have immediately measured the circuit voltage at the battery with the emergency switch on and the Voltage read ~8 Volts.

Then I have turned the ignition switch on and measured the circuit voltage at the battery again: ~2 Volts.

So I think that something somewhere does a short circuit, but I have no idea where. I have checked all the cables behind the dashboard and they all seem fine. Couldn't find any loose connector. Some in the engine compartment and under the car.

I have still suspected the starter to be the issue at this point. So I have removed all the cables leading to the starter and connected the cables leading to it independently together, but this didn't change anything.

So I'm kinda lost where I should continue my investigations.
I have a feeling that some device broke and is causing a partial shorting somewhere. I have placed the Amperemeter between the Plus-Pole of the Starter Battery and the big lead, but this just drew 1mA without any load.

I'd appreciate any help.

[busdaddy]

You say you've removed, cleaned and tightened some of the cables, now's the time to do them all, that includes the ground strap at the front of the transmission.
What you describe is a poor connection at the red/white wire on the starter, possibly combined with other bad connections.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!

[DrElch]

That red/white Cable is exactly the culprit I have in mind. I just wonder how this cable can turn to crap in a matter of minutes.

[busdaddy]

It can't, but the connection at the starter, or the other end at fuse #10 on the fuse box can fail from age, or other factors. Just because the ring terminal is clean doesn't mean the crimp onto the wire is good.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!

[VWSunny72]

I was thinking ground strap as well. I cleaned/sanded mine and still had some gremlin issues. I replaced it with a new one and all was good.
_________________
------------------------
I am owned by a 1972 Westy named Sunny. She has a 1979 2.0L engine w/ dual Weber IDF 40s.

[DrElch]

The Groundstrap at the transmission is new and connections are fine.

The crimps at the Red/White cable are fine on the starter end. The cable is obviously the original one.
Gotta find and check the other side. I will check with a bypass cable to verify.

[BerneseMtnDog]

I'd also have a look at the hard start relay. I had one die not too long ago and the bus wouldn't start. In fact I'd remove that altogether. I did. If the wiring is good and clean they aren't necessary.

Steve

[Abscate]

[DrElch]

[SGKent]

[DrElch]

[SGKent]

[DrElch]

Post to Post it is 12.7v without any load, but the cables attached.

Also if I check the voltage in other places in the chassis where I would expect permanent voltage it is 12.7v.

The load drop that I have described was also measured from Post to Post.

Example: So let's say I turn the emergency switch on (to get the strange noise in the relay). Then I go to the back of the car and measure Post to Post only 8v.

Turning the switch off and it is back to 12.7v

[busdaddy]

OK, and you are measuring with the points of the probes touching the actual post in the center of the battery terminal, not on the part that clamps around it, right? How about the very same test with booster cables connected between your two batteries?
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!

[SGKent]

if you are 8V post center to post center under a load the battery is bad or lacks a charge.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[Abscate]

[mikedjames]

What you describe is a symptom of leaving a battery to go flat for a while then charging it - the plates develop a layer of sulfate on them which reduces the capacity.
The fraction of the battery that is still working will show normal voltages while you are charging it, but it will not be able to deliver any current.

Either take it to a store to get it tested , or buy one of those eBay battery testers that can measure the internal resistance of the battery and calculate the Cold Cranking Amps.


If the voltage drops off just with the ignition on and the headlights running , thats another sign.

The fact you can jump start it with the Aux battery is yet another sign of the death of your starter battery.
_________________
Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[Wildthings]

I agree with others, your battery is most likely totally shot, buy the best replacement that you can find. Cheap batteries will not save you any money.

FWIW in the Pacific Northwest I have had very good luck with the top of the line batteries that Les Schwab sells, they have a 7 year warranty and I don't think I have even needed to have one replaced under warranty and I typically own 5 or 6 batteries at any one time, many of which do a lot of sitting.

[DrElch]

Thanks for all your help.

But it wasn't the battery.

The ground strap connection the battery to the chassis was so corroded, that it wasn't properly conducting anymore. Or in this case not conducting at all!
The strap itself was perfectly fine.

I applied a temporary fix to verify my assumption (mounting the strap to another point) . Lo and behold everything is back to normal.

So I can consider this now a solved problem. Thanks guys.

Just out of curiosity, are such mounting points for the ground strap more prone to corrosion than other points in the car? Is there something going on because copper goes on metal like electrolysis?

ANything I can do to improve longevity for when I redo this mounting point

I have to start from scratch. The old bolt is striped, so I have to drill it out and replace it.

[busdaddy]

Thanks for following up.

Electrical connections decay at a much faster rate than purely mechanical ones, those added electrons seem to speed up the process.
Bolt the shiny end of the strap to shiny metal with a shiny bolt, use a good amount of grease between the layers and brush more on the outside when you are done, by the time it's a problem again you'll be too old to care.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!