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Boosted02gt
Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2023
Posts: 3
Location: Propser, TX
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 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 3:18 pm Post subject: 72 Super Beetle - No start from Ignition, cranks when touching |
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Hey Everyone, this is my first post and I did try to run a couple of searches. Short story was that I bought a 72 Super Beetle to work on with my 6 year old daughter. I drove it from the flat bed to the garage and took it around the neighborhood a couple of times. However, you always had to play with the wires on the the back of the key ignition to get it to start. I started to tinker with it and see what was going on but then couldn't get it to start. I had someone suggest to get a hard start relay so we put that in this weekend.
It still won't start so that might not have been the issue so I pulled all the wires on the back of the key ignition and while I was messing with it the power and starter wires touched which got a quick little crank out of it. So this leads me to thing that the wiring, battery, and hard start install are all good. When I put everything back into the ignition relay behind the key and turn it over the lights turn on the dash but nothing for the engine.
I am thinking that it isn't a wire issue now but actually a issue with the key cylinder/relay itself.
Any other suggestions before I order some replacement stuff. |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33265
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: 72 Super Beetle - No start from Ignition, cranks when touching |
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I've seen where the key cylinder will not fully engage into the electrical part of the switch once; and that was on a 1972.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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jinx758
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2014
Posts: 1038
Location: half a bubble from plumb
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2023 2:02 am Post subject: Re: 72 Super Beetle - No start from Ignition, cranks when touching |
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Measure voltage at battery, then while cranking, & also on + at coil.
Hopefully it's just dirty contacts - or grounds but agree with above suggestion.
You'd be better off cleaning/rebuilding a factory German switch than the crud from aftermarket.
Good luck ... stay safe
jinx
_________________
" It's not valuable unless you learn something from an experience. " Henry Ford
It's not unlike the same difference ...
My Craigslist rescued 100 footer :
1971 Standard Bug
1776cc dual port
034 distributor
38mm EGAS Carburetor |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16680
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2023 10:32 am Post subject: Re: 72 Super Beetle - No start from Ignition, cranks when touching |
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| Boosted02gt wrote: |
| I bought a 72 Super Beetle... However, you always had to play with the wires on the the back of the key ignition to get it to start. I started to tinker with it and see what was going on but then couldn't get it to start. |
The '72 model year was the first year VW used a plug at the end of the wiring to the ignition switch electrical. In previous years the wires were soldered to the bottom of the ignition switch.
What exactly do you mean when you say, "couldn't get it to start"? The engine doesn't crank? Or, it cranks but the engine will not start running?
| Boosted02gt wrote: |
| It still won't start so that might not have been the issue so I pulled all the wires on the back of the key ignition and while I was messing with it the power and starter wires touched which got a quick little crank out of it. So this leads me to thin(k) that the wiring, battery, and hard start install are all good. When I put everything back into the ignition relay behind the key and turn it over the lights turn on the dash but nothing for the engine. |
What do your meant by "relay behind the key"? Are you referring to the hard start relay? Or instead of "relay" did you actually mean the "plug" at the bottom of the ignition switch?
| Boosted02gt wrote: |
| I am thinking that it isn't a wire issue now but actually a issue with the key cylinder/relay itself. |
You can test the ignition switch using a digital multimeter.
Looking at the plug that connects to the bottom of the ignition switch, ID the following three wires and their position on the plug/switch:
#30 (red wire) = constant 12v INPUT
#15 (black wire) = ignition switched OUTPUT that powers all ignition switched devices including the ignition coil
#X (black/yellow wire) = OUTPUT to low priority devices (headlights and wipers) that do not need to be powered while cranking the engine
#50 (red/black wire) = Starter solenoid OUTPUT that energizes the starter solenoid to crank the engine
Connect an ohm meter to the ignition switch male terminals and confirm a closed circuit (zero resistance) between the different terminals when the key is in the following positions (wiggle the key in each position to check if there is a loose internal connection):
ON/RUN
#30 - #15 = zero resistance
#30 - #X = zero resistance
START
#30 - #15 = zero resistance
#30 - #50 = zero resistance
All readings should be zero resistance between the two ignition switch terminals. Anything noticeably higher (>1 ohm) reduces the current that actually makes it to the end if the circuit.
As jinx758 above suggests, take voltage readings from the battery and at the end of different circuits for comparison. Voltage drops suggest high resistance in the wiring and connections that reduce the current that makes it to the end of the circuit. While the engine is cranking, the starter motor will pull a huge amount of current from the battery, leaving less available to power devices. That current if further reduced by resistance in the circuit. It is not unusual with 40yr old wiring to see less than 12.0v reaching the ignition coil WHILE the starter is cranking. If the ignition coil #15 (+) terminal voltage drops below 10.0v while cranking the coil may stop producing a spark strong enough to jump the spark plug electrodes. This is hard to troubleshoot because any test done while not cranking shows good voltage at the coil.
Run a jumper wire directly from the battery to the coil #15 terminal (use battery jumper cables to extend the battery posts to the engine area) and start the engine. If this works to get the engine running it suggests the ignition coil voltage is dropping too low while the starter is cranking.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Boosted02gt
Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2023
Posts: 3
Location: Propser, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2023 11:08 am Post subject: Re: 72 Super Beetle - No start from Ignition, cranks when touching |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| Boosted02gt wrote: |
| I bought a 72 Super Beetle... However, you always had to play with the wires on the the back of the key ignition to get it to start. I started to tinker with it and see what was going on but then couldn't get it to start. |
The '72 model year was the first year VW used a plug at the end of the wiring to the ignition switch electrical. In previous years the wires were soldered to the bottom of the ignition switch.
What exactly do you mean when you say, "couldn't get it to start"? The engine doesn't crank? Or, it cranks but the engine will not start running?
 When I turn the key I get nothing (not a click, start, crank, etc) the only thing that happens is the lights on the dash do turn on.
| Boosted02gt wrote: |
| It still won't start so that might not have been the issue so I pulled all the wires on the back of the key ignition and while I was messing with it the power and starter wires touched which got a quick little crank out of it. So this leads me to thin(k) that the wiring, battery, and hard start install are all good. When I put everything back into the ignition relay behind the key and turn it over the lights turn on the dash but nothing for the engine. |
What do your meant by "relay behind the key"? Are you referring to the hard start relay? Or instead of "relay" did you actually mean the "plug" at the bottom of the ignition switch?
I meant the plug behind the key were the 5 wires would attach (ignition, power, headlights, etc)
| Boosted02gt wrote: |
| I am thinking that it isn't a wire issue now but actually a issue with the key cylinder/relay itself. |
You can test the ignition switch using a digital multimeter.
Looking at the plug that connects to the bottom of the ignition switch, ID the following three wires and their position on the plug/switch:
#30 (red wire) = constant 12v INPUT
#15 (black wire) = ignition switched OUTPUT that powers all ignition switched devices including the ignition coil
#X (black/yellow wire) = OUTPUT to low priority devices (headlights and wipers) that do not need to be powered while cranking the engine
#50 (red/black wire) = Starter solenoid OUTPUT that energizes the starter solenoid to crank the engine
Connect an ohm meter to the ignition switch male terminals and confirm a closed circuit (zero resistance) between the different terminals when the key is in the following positions (wiggle the key in each position to check if there is a loose internal connection):
ON/RUN
#30 - #15 = zero resistance
#30 - #X = zero resistance
START
#30 - #15 = zero resistance
#30 - #50 = zero resistance
All readings should be zero resistance between the two ignition switch terminals. Anything noticeably higher (>1 ohm) reduces the current that actually makes it to the end if the circuit.
As jinx758 above suggests, take voltage readings from the battery and at the end of different circuits for comparison. Voltage drops suggest high resistance in the wiring and connections that reduce the current that makes it to the end of the circuit. While the engine is cranking, the starter motor will pull a huge amount of current from the battery, leaving less available to power devices. That current if further reduced by resistance in the circuit. It is not unusual with 40yr old wiring to see less than 12.0v reaching the ignition coil WHILE the starter is cranking. If the ignition coil #15 (+) terminal voltage drops below 10.0v while cranking the coil may stop producing a spark strong enough to jump the spark plug electrodes. This is hard to troubleshoot because any test done while not cranking shows good voltage at the coil.
Run a jumper wire directly from the battery to the coil #15 terminal (use battery jumper cables to extend the battery posts to the engine area) and start the engine. If this works to get the engine running it suggests the ignition coil voltage is dropping too low while the starter is cranking. |
I will need to get a meter and test them next to see what the issue is I guess. I am not super mechanically/electrically inclined so I was hoping that it was a simple plug and play issue since it was working but needed to be wiggled a bit to start. It made me originally think it was a loose connection or something along those lines that would be easy. |
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jinx758
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2014
Posts: 1038
Location: half a bubble from plumb
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: 72 Super Beetle - No start from Ignition, cranks when touching |
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FYI ...
Don't leave key in ON position very long without engine running. You can fuse the points together or fry a Pertronix module.
In 2016 I had to do some rewiring on my '71 (with '72 steering column - came this way). Stoopid PO wired the dash lights to be on with key on. After stumbling thru the wiring diagram I went to auto parts store & got a Haynes manual. It has the electrical broken down into sections. This helped me get a grasp of the quirky wiring that was engineered into these vehicles. Now I can utilize the full diagrams.
Spend some time cleaning contacts (pos & neg), tightening female spade connectors - time well spent.
It couldn't hurt - and may give you reliability esp concerning lights, horn, brake lights, starting, spark strength, etc. I spent 2.5days going thru EVERYTHING in 2018 & now scrape my grounds once yearly.
I got pulled over for no tail light on passenger side. It turned out my connectors were molasses colored, not bright brass.
Too bad I'm 5hrs south of you.
Look into joining a local car club. My wife & I found a good one & they have a monthly Busted Knuckle Nite.
Best luck ... stay safe
jinx
_________________
" It's not valuable unless you learn something from an experience. " Henry Ford
It's not unlike the same difference ...
My Craigslist rescued 100 footer :
1971 Standard Bug
1776cc dual port
034 distributor
38mm EGAS Carburetor |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16680
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: 72 Super Beetle - No start from Ignition, cranks when touching |
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| Boosted02gt wrote: |
What exactly do you mean when you say, "couldn't get it to start"? The engine doesn't crank? Or, it cranks but the engine will not start running?
When I turn the key I get nothing (not a click, start, crank, etc) the only thing that happens is the lights on the dash do turn on. |
This suggests the starter solenoid circuit (#50) is inconsistently being powered. You can check this at the red/black wire coming out of the ignition switch plug. When the key is turned all the way to START this wire should have 12v. This red/black wire runs all the way to the space under the left rear seat. Find the thick red wire junction there under the seat before the wire exits along the center tunnel next to the steel brake line. Test the voltage that makes it to this junction and see if there is a significant voltage loss between the ignition switch and the rear connection. It is common after decades of use for the internal ignition switch contacts for the #50 circuit to get "burnt". The carbon build up acts as a resistor that either reduces the voltage that makes it to the starter or causes different areas of the switch to become non-conductive and you need to move the switch around to find a clean spot to allow current to flow thru the switch contacts.
If your ignition switch is OE you may want to try carefully opening up the switch and refurbish it by cleaning the internal contacts before re-assembling the switch and reinstalling it. The OE VW switches are much better than the aftermarket ignition switches available today. The contact area inside the new switches are much smaller than OE and burn up in a matter of months instead of years. You can add external relays (similar to a hard start relay) on each OUTPUT circuit to extend the life of these aftermarket switches.
| Boosted02gt wrote: |
| I will need to get a meter and test them next to see what the issue is I guess. I am not super mechanically/electrically inclined so I was hoping that it was a simple plug and play issue since it was working but needed to be wiggled a bit to start. It made me originally think it was a loose connection or something along those lines that would be easy. |
The multimeter will help you if you plan on keeping your Beetle. I can't imagine maintaining a Beetle without at least a cheap DMM.
I am a firm believer in testing to isolate (or at least narrow down) where the problem may be before replacing parts. Throwing $$ at parts in the hopes that it may fix the problem is throwing $$ down the drain.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Boosted02gt
Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2023
Posts: 3
Location: Propser, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: 72 Super Beetle - No start from Ignition, cranks when touching |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| Boosted02gt wrote: |
What exactly do you mean when you say, "couldn't get it to start"? The engine doesn't crank? Or, it cranks but the engine will not start running?
When I turn the key I get nothing (not a click, start, crank, etc) the only thing that happens is the lights on the dash do turn on. |
This suggests the starter solenoid circuit (#50) is inconsistently being powered. You can check this at the red/black wire coming out of the ignition switch plug. When the key is turned all the way to START this wire should have 12v. This red/black wire runs all the way to the space under the left rear seat. Find the thick red wire junction there under the seat before the wire exits along the center tunnel next to the steel brake line. Test the voltage that makes it to this junction and see if there is a significant voltage loss between the ignition switch and the rear connection. It is common after decades of use for the internal ignition switch contacts for the #50 circuit to get "burnt". The carbon build up acts as a resistor that either reduces the voltage that makes it to the starter or causes different areas of the switch to become non-conductive and you need to move the switch around to find a clean spot to allow current to flow thru the switch contacts.
If your ignition switch is OE you may want to try carefully opening up the switch and refurbish it by cleaning the internal contacts before re-assembling the switch and reinstalling it. The OE VW switches are much better than the aftermarket ignition switches available today. The contact area inside the new switches are much smaller than OE and burn up in a matter of months instead of years. You can add external relays (similar to a hard start relay) on each OUTPUT circuit to extend the life of these aftermarket switches.
| Boosted02gt wrote: |
| I will need to get a meter and test them next to see what the issue is I guess. I am not super mechanically/electrically inclined so I was hoping that it was a simple plug and play issue since it was working but needed to be wiggled a bit to start. It made me originally think it was a loose connection or something along those lines that would be easy. |
The multimeter will help you if you plan on keeping your Beetle. I can't imagine maintaining a Beetle without at least a cheap DMM.
I am a firm believer in testing to isolate (or at least narrow down) where the problem may be before replacing parts. Throwing $$ at parts in the hopes that it may fix the problem is throwing $$ down the drain. |
Thanks for that. I will give it a try, ordering a multimeter now and I will do some tracing on the #50 circuit and wires. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16680
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:45 am Post subject: Re: 72 Super Beetle - No start from Ignition, cranks when touching |
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These pics should help you find what you are looking for… or for the next person with this problem 
Below the steering column look for the black plug at the very bottom end of the ignition switch assembly (follow the black/yellow wire in the pic below)
In the middle of this pic of the left rear seat area you can see a thick red wire with a junction that then enters a grey sleeve before exiting next to the brake line that runs along the center tunnel. This is the other end of the #50 starter solenoid wire that started at the ignition switch.
If you install a Bosch-style hard start relay it is typically installed here in place of the junction.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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