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outcaststudios
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Joined: February 09, 2015
Posts: 1756
Location: Maine
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 Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:04 am Post subject: overloaded alternator? |
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something is causing my alternators to die early deaths. i just put a new 65a alt in about maybe 200 miles ago. was driving and now i always pay very close attention to the tach gauge as it is driven from the alt. i got stuck in some traffic and it was 100 degrees out, so i was crawling and listening to the radio really loud. i noticed that the needle stopped working for the tach. a minute later it worked again, relief! but then it flatlined again. luckily i have a solar recharge panel i plug into the lighter to charge, and drove home with it in (diesel). got home and could get no reading on the charge with meter. dead alternator with less than 200 miles on it. belt tension was good not overly tight , i alwys run them a bit loose actually. can anyone help me think of why it would be dying like that? bad Voltage regulartor? i bought a new VR from brickwerks and a new alt...puzzled.
_________________
'88Doka JX td
'69 westy
(rip)couple bugs
(rip)three type III"s
(rip) '81 vanagon
a bunch of french stuff,and 9 motorcycles.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2573791 |
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valvecovergasket
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Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 1504
Location: pnw
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:35 am Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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have any local rebuilders nearby?
maybe they can run them on their stand and give you a better diagnosis of what keeps dying. |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 19069
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:41 am Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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What is it maintaining? The diesel starter battery or a couple of batteries? A diesel vanagon stock has almost no load on the battery other than to start it. I'd expect the alternator to last till the bearings wore out.
Also, the vanagon diesel used a molded plug for the alternator connection originally. VW and Audi used the same plug for years on other models. They were prone to failing internally. VW and Audi finally wized up an started using a threaded stud for the BAT connection. |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10465
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:44 am Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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I recently bench tested the amp draw of the radiator fan taken from a late WBX van with A/C. (450 watt rated fan)
With the fan wired for high speed the measured amps were 38-39 amps.
The JX supposedly has a larger 500 watt rated fan.
Did you hear your fan kicking in when you were stuck in hot traffic?
Mark |
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Steve M.
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Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6933
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:55 am Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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65Amp? Is this on the old Westy?
The alt's on my 84, 86 and 91 were all 90Amp.
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This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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ZsZ
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Joined: December 11, 2010
Posts: 1743
Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:59 am Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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Do you have a second battery?
Charging those from depleted can easily overload a 65A alt.
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Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 5910
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:33 am Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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run a ground strap from the alt case to the body, or if you re-located batt to the rear, right to the negative post. this should keep the alternator diodes and regulator happy if there happens to a poor ground.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10465
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 11:09 am Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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An 88 JX has the battery in rear and battery negative cable already going to engine/alternator.
Stock alternator is 65A with a wiring stud for power out.
Below is old photo from OP gallery.
The red alternator cable looks meager and insufficient.
Hopefully that has been upgraded.
I would switch to AL33X 90 amp alternator, need different tensioning arm and heavier red charging wire from alternator.
Mark |
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outcaststudios
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2015
Posts: 1756
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 11:23 am Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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mark,'
i will change that cable out when i get new alternator in. i am running only the radio, and a charger for the phone, and an additional charger for the bluetooth device. otherwise not anything that was running at the time. my fan did come on, and also came on after i got back to the shop and switched it off, it ran for the expected amount of time and shut off as normal, temps all were normal for a 110 kph drive on a hot day. i had toyed with the 90 amp alternator , but i assumed first there is something wrong causing this, so decided to stay stock for now, i do have the other pulley and belt on hand to upgrade if need be though. thaks for the replies guys super helpful!
_________________
'88Doka JX td
'69 westy
(rip)couple bugs
(rip)three type III"s
(rip) '81 vanagon
a bunch of french stuff,and 9 motorcycles.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2573791 |
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outcaststudios
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2015
Posts: 1756
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 11:24 am Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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i did buy an 'upgraded' voltage regulator does anyone here have any experiences with those? 14amp units from england...
_________________
'88Doka JX td
'69 westy
(rip)couple bugs
(rip)three type III"s
(rip) '81 vanagon
a bunch of french stuff,and 9 motorcycles.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2573791 |
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Chilepines
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Joined: October 11, 2022
Posts: 251
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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Have an 89 with 2.5 Subie. Has relatively new 90A alternator. Recently put in LiFePO4 house battery with 30A Victron DC-DC charger. I had been seeing 20A from the charger while on the road, and house battery was full after driving.
On a big road trip, 1500 miles so far. Pulled in to get gas, and she won’t start. Sounds like a dead battery. Which should not be dead as it is a brand new starter battery, but battery is at 11.1 V. Tried starting with my booster, which did not work at first but then I got it to turn over. Idled a bit, then started sputtering, at that point I noted the tachometer was not working and then she stalled out.
Then I checked the house battery and it did not get charged while driving - so sound like the alternator is not working.
Is there some way to tie these together? Would a dead alternator make the tach quit working? Would the tach not working affect the ECU and cause it to stall?
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White 89 Westy with 2004 Subaru EJ25 and Subarugears 5MT - Betty |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Igeo
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Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 912
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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Try checking the output. Charge the starting battery, then start the engine. Then using a VOM set to DC volts, put the red probe to the output terminal and the black lead to ground. You want to see 13.7 to 14.2 volts. If you do, then you have wiring issues.
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10797
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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| Chilepines wrote: |
Have an 89 with 2.5 Subie. Has relatively new 90A alternator. Recently put in LiFePO4 house battery with 30A Victron DC-DC charger. I had been seeing 20A from the charger while on the road, and house battery was full after driving.
On a big road trip, 1500 miles so far. Pulled in to get gas, and she won’t start. Sounds like a dead battery. Which should not be dead as it is a brand new starter battery, but battery is at 11.1 V. Tried starting with my booster, which did not work at first but then I got it to turn over. Idled a bit, then started sputtering, at that point I noted the tachometer was not working and then she stalled out.
Then I checked the house battery and it did not get charged while driving - so sound like the alternator is not working.
Is there some way to tie these together? Would a dead alternator make the tach quit working? Would the tach not working affect the ECU and cause it to stall? |
I had exactly the problem you describe. 1,000 miles from home. I attached a jumper cable, grounding the manifold to the van chassis and the problem disappeared.
I found more than 2volts from manifold to ground.
It sparked.
My van was a Smallcar conversion and they do not add an engine ground. So all the alternator current goes through the transaxle case to the front ground strap. Problem is, when the last transaxle case bolt (steel) gets a little white corrosion on the threads where it goes into the magnesium, then electricity diverts thru your gearbox shafts. You lose a couple volts in the “dynamic connection” as it crosses the bearings, and it ruins your gearbox too.
You will see a big pile of black dust on the magnet. And sometime soon after, shiny flakes follow.
And a whine. And shifter movement in 4th gear (on accel/decel).
Sorry for the bad news.
I’m trying to get the word out about that danged forward transaxle ground.
A LOT of vans are getting old and will suffer this problem.
It was OK for 10-15??? years. If the groundpath is maintained by removing and cleaning all the case bolts (but who would do that?).
Not OK for 35 year old vehicle with unmaintained ground path.
It gets “that much worse” when you add a hungry LiFePO4 that will suck hard on the alternator.
Delete it. Its a daisy-chain of dissimilar metals, outdoors and has a limited lifetime.
Copper is proper.
Do something like this.
And check the drain magnet on your gearbox.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu Aug 10, 2023 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chilepines
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2022
Posts: 251
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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| Igeo wrote: |
| Try checking the output. Charge the starting battery, then start the engine. Then using a VOM set to DC volts, put the red probe to the output terminal and the black lead to ground. You want to see 13.7 to 14.2 volts. If you do, then you have wiring issues. |
Tried restarting it after putting in a new IACV that I had with me. Starter battery was at 11.7 (was lower earlier) and it cranked right up. Alternator voltage was 11.4, and with the engine running the starter battery was LOWER than before I started it. So looks like nothing much coming out of the alternator.
Luckily we were in a small town in Nebraska and the O'Reilly Auto had a 90A alternator in stock that supposedly fits the 2004 Forester.
Hopefully I can get that in, but then I need to figure out what killed it.
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White 89 Westy with 2004 Subaru EJ25 and Subarugears 5MT - Betty |
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Chilepines
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Joined: October 11, 2022
Posts: 251
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
My van was a Smallcar conversion and they do not add an engine ground. So all the alternator current goes through the transaxle case to the front ground strap. Problem is, when the last transaxle case bolt (steel) gets a little white corrosion on the threads where it goes into the magnesium, then electricity diverts thru your gearbox shafts. You lose a couple volts in the “dynamic connection” as it crosses the bearings, and it ruins your gearbox too.
You will see a big pile of black dust on the magnet. And sometime soon after, shiny flakes follow.
It gets “that much worse” when you add a hungry LiFePO4 that will suck hard on the alternator.
Delete it. Its a daisy-chain of dissimilar metals, outdoors and has a limited lifetime.
Copper is proper.
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I have a RMW conversion. I'm not sure about the ground setup but I'll look at that tomorrow when I work on the alternator.
I had the van checked by a good mechanic before we left and he showed me pics of the drain magnet which had a lot of metal on it. He thought it was a pretty average amount but did not relate it back to the alternator ground.
In your van, where did you connect the new alternator ground? It's not clear from the pic. Is that right to the frame, and if so is that a bolt that is already there? And that ground cable doesn't look very big at all - what size did you use?
Thanks for the input!
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White 89 Westy with 2004 Subaru EJ25 and Subarugears 5MT - Betty |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10797
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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Mechanics are funny about gearboxes.
Thats somebody’s else’s department.
If they saw that much trash in your engine oil they’d have a cow. 
But in your gearbox, full of precision rolling elements that you hope to use for 300,000 miles?
No filter, and no oil change for 30,000, 60,000, 90,000 miles? Or "ever"?
-----> Every mile is a “bonus mile” if it outlasts one engine build, right?
And they're NOT gonna relate it to the electrical grounds.
Maybe a mechanic who specializes in antiques AND has studied gearboxes at their end-of-life.
I know one of those guys and he's prob gonna retire.
So agreed....you won't get this info from your mechanic.
Keep in mind VERY few antique vehicles get big alternators & big LiFePO4s installed.
It's only Vanagons and a few buses.
=========
The bolt thread was already there - welded on the chassis sheetmetal.
Alternator ground wire logically is about same size as the positive cable coming off the alternator terminal.
Its the same current.
In reality, less current because there are other paths, little sensor ground wires, transaxle bearings, throttle cables, stainless steel brake hoses, e-brake cables and other haphazard paths. Perhaps there's a substantial cyl-head ground on RMW, like OEM (?)
Much better for the alternator to have its own guaranteed copper cable that reliably takes every amp the alternator can put out (90A).
With only two connections (no daisy-chain).
Inspectable.
100% known good.
Adding a hungry LiFePO4,,,, its worthwhile to embark upon a “no lost volts” campaign.
It makes sense to go up "one size" on the positive cable too.
And give the ground path the same bigger size, pretending theres no other path. 
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Chilepines
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2022
Posts: 251
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Much better for the alternator to have its own guaranteed copper cable that reliably takes every amp the alternator can put out (90A).
With only two connections (no daisy-chain).
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Looking at my setup I do have a grounding strap from the engine block to the chassis. Given that, is there anything gained by adding an additional ground from the alternator itself to the chassis?
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White 89 Westy with 2004 Subaru EJ25 and Subarugears 5MT - Betty |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10797
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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| Chilepines wrote: |
| Recently put in LiFePO4 house battery with 30A Victron DC-DC charger. I had been seeing 20A from the charger while on the road, and house battery was full after driving. |
I have a 60A DC-DC charger in one van. I often see the LifePO4 sucking 60amps.
I have a 50A DC-DC in the other van. I often see 50 amps for the awhile, sucking hard for 30 minutes etc.
Only 20A from a 30A charger suggests there is resistance somewhere in your 'big wires'.
If the ground path has not been confirmed, do so.
The positive is culpable as well, but the ground side are often taken for granted for 10,20,30 years and as such are a likely subject for voltage loss.
Next time the battery is "hungry" and you see 20A (you should be seeing 30A) then start probing around with a voltmeter in a "voltage drop test".
An example would be looking for voltage from alternator case to van chassis.
It should be "zero volts".
But if there's resistance, you might measure 1 or 2 volts. (1 or 2 volts is an example of huge loss).
Do you understand 'the voltage drop test'?
And that the voltage must be measured while the alternator is cranking out the amps.
So you have to do it when the LiFePO4 is hungry and taking all the amps it can get.
A 30 amp charger only passing 20 amps is "perfect conditions" for this test.
| Chilepines wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
Much better for the alternator to have its own guaranteed copper cable that reliably takes every amp the alternator can put out (90A).
With only two connections (no daisy-chain).
|
Looking at my setup I do have a grounding strap from the engine block to the chassis. Given that, is there anything gained by adding an additional ground from the alternator itself to the chassis? |
The alternator-to-bolt-to-bracket-to-bolt-to block-to-head-to-strap-to-chassis builds up a little corrosion.
There's appx 4 to 8 connections.
How long ago were all the connections confirmed shiny? 10 years? 20 yers?
It's a daisy-chain current path that must eventually degrade.
Sooner in wet climates, later in dry environments but with each year, more corrosion & higher resistance.
The resistance at each connection is additive, so the resistance is the sum of 4 - 8 connections.
You could take all 4 to 8 connections apart.
Clean and inspect and ensure they are all not only able to support the alternator,  but pass 90amps too.
Or just add a copper wire that bypasses all of them.
The bolted connections become structural only.
No longer structural+electrical.
Structural+electrical is efficient.
Low cost (for some years).
You don't need the efficiency of manufacturing, you NEED to eliminate electrical problems.
What's gained is certainty, and it can be had for about $15.
Certainty is valuable when faced with electrical problems.
Another 'gain' is you won't have to "learn" the voltage drop test if you simply put a cable there.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Nitramrebrab72
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Posts: 977
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 4:21 am Post subject: Re: overloaded alternator? |
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| Did the installation of the solar panels coincide with the alternator troubles ? |
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