56 Old Speed Euro DeVille Influenced Build

[TomVaughan64]

[TomVaughan64]

[scrivyscriv]

[TomVaughan64]

Funny you should mention spot welding. I happen to be looking into that right now. I am trying to figure out what to order (if anything) and what I will or will not be able to do. I am not sure what I am going to do here. I am still looking into the possibilities. Any feed back or experience with spot welding would be appreciated.

My pans have already been welded by the pervious owner. Assuming they are on correctly, I will not be welding pans on this project. However, during my research, it seems like factory like spot welds, on the pan, may require more current and bigger machines than i could afford or fit in my shop.

Washburn Metals seems to be well known for their pan installations and they use a really big spot welder.

Here are a couple of pictures from the Washburn Metals Instagram page @washburnsmetal :

Here is another video I found here on The Samba:


Link


Perhaps some one can let me know if it is possible to adequately spot weld pans with 230 volt current, or is it just better to plug weld this part.

Earlier in this tread I introduced a video of a VW Bug restoration VW Kafer Full Body Restoration. According to his answer in the comments, the gentleman in the video was using a "Telwin Modular Digital 400 2+2 millimeter 380 V with 16 A":

Here is what that Spot welder looks like:

I do not have 400V service in my shop that this spot welder requires.

There are several examples of what look like this same welder in a 230V model. They all seem to be exactly the same spot welder as the Telwin 230V spot welder. The specs and operating instructions seem to be the same. The other models that I found were Sealy and HTP.

HTP has the lowest price. I am hoping it is the same model as the others. The specs state that you can weld 2.0 + 2.0 mm. My interpretation of this is that I could max out with this spot welder at trying to attach two 14-gauge pieces of sheet metal.

Here is a link HTP America Quick Spot II spot welder web site

https://usaweld.com/collections/htp-america-quick-spot-ii/products/quick_spot_ii

HTP has a good video on this spot welders performance:


Link


Thank you for any feedback you can give me here.
_________________
Tom

"Begin with the end in mind"
Stephen Covey

"Keep focused and seeking knowledge, you will never find disappointed, only small hiccups!"
Jimbo

56 Old Speed Euro Deville Influenced Build

[grailoc]

I bought the HTP spot welder during black friday.
it is in fact the TELWIN Italian made brand so I was happy about the purchase I made.

you can look at my 56 cabrio restoration preservation I finished last year it was a 3.5 years project. I also have a oldspeed engine in it: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=620
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My 59 low light ghia: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=452128
My 56 beetle convertible: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7796259
My 60 SO23 westy: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=341539
My oldspeed 36hp autotechnik express build: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670827
My garage build: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=199438

[TomVaughan64]

[scrivyscriv]

I have some personal experience using a handheld Harbor Freight 240V spot welder. It will work well for a lot of areas but you’ll be limited by the tongs, so I’d suggest looking around for tong options. What I’ve found is the small handheld spotters just don’t have the amperage to adequately weld thick metal. I think the HF spotter will weld the two halves of the tunnel together, but it would not be able to weld pans onto those two halves.

Those shops doing excellent restoration level work are a great inspiration! If you can’t see how it’s supposed to be done, then you’ll never really know what to shoot for on your own! For my 1967 beetle, I couldn’t justify the cost of a big spot welder just to do my pans, but I have the HF spotter for anything else I can reach, like the rear floor crossmembers.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help.

[esde]

I have used, and still occasionally use a spot welder. Installing seal channels for instance, you want the correct indentation that a spot welder leaves.

But most times, the tongs simply cannot get around to both sides. I have used a spot welder with giant hoop tongs to spot weld the supports to the inside of a bus long side wall, and it was a PITA even with three people. Cool, but not something I'm doing again unless it's the absolutely right project.
The large machines are sweet, but not practical for most people in the home shop.
Currently when doing rosette welds (what I prefer on floor pans) I use a Miller with a pulse setting. You can do a really fast hot rosette this way, that takes a few seconds to finish with a rol-loc disc. I use this machine for most everything, and save the spot welder for when appearances matter.
FYI, I have 2 spot welders, a 40 year old 220 miller, and a fairly new 220 harbor fright. They weigh the same, and are indistinguishable from one another. The HTP machine is intriguing but I haven't found any situation where my ghetto level machines won't do the job.
_________________
modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[TomVaughan64]

[TomVaughan64]

I spent the past couple of weeks setting up and using Rust911 on my doors. It took a few times with my first door but I finally figured it out.

When soaking the doors the Rust911 leaves a black residue which I am still removing from the door on the right:

Here are a few before and after pictures of the rust on the inside of the door:

I am happy with the end result.

Here are the steps that I figured out through trial and error:

1. Mix 56 gallons of water with 3.5 gallons of Rust911 in a 70 gallon container
2. Soak first half of door until rust disappears (full door does not fit in my container)
3. Pull door and wash soaked part with soap and water
4. Dry door with towel
5. Finish drying with a heat gun
6. Spray Ospho in the impossible to reach areas (upper window frame)
7. Apply Gibbs to the rest of the soaked part of the door
8. Repeat steps 2 thru 9 on the second half of the door
9. Use Gibbs and a maroon Scotch-Brite sanding pad to remove the black residue.

I wanted to give an update on my experience using Gibbs. We had a strong storm with a lot of wind. Floyd's car cover was not secured very well and it blew away leaving Floyd out in the very heavy rain for about 3 hours. I finally got the shop cleared out so I could get Floyd out of the rain. There was some flash rust in a few areas that wiped off when I reapplied the Gibbs. Floyd has been in the shop all week and there is no new evidence of rust. This was a pretty good test. I never did find my car cover.

Next, I will continue to soak other rusty parts and fasteners.

Here is my rough drawing of a chassis rust removing soaking station that I am building:

I am making this out of 3/4-inch conduit, plastic, and velcro. There are six small sprinklers on the top and six on the bottom. There is also one sprinkler that can be moved anywhere, including inside the tunnel. The water and Rust911 solution comes out the bottom into a container that has a pump to push the solution back up into the sprinklers. I will update how the build of this station goes and how it works on my rusty chassis.
_________________
Tom

"Begin with the end in mind"
Stephen Covey

"Keep focused and seeking knowledge, you will never find disappointed, only small hiccups!"
Jimbo

56 Old Speed Euro Deville Influenced Build

[VW_Jimbo]

I made a plastic “pan” out of 2x4s laying flat on the floor. Then install 4 pieces of 1” plywood, each piece cut to a triangle, to form a point meeting in the very center of the rectangle. Installed each plywood triangle onto the 2x4 base and allowed them all to rest on the concrete floor in the center. This giving me a 1 to 5 slop to the center. Then another round of 2x4s, screwed together standing on their small edge, attached to the base 2x4s from the previous rectangle, to circle the car. Then I took some 6mil plastic sheeting and with a cut off sheet, rolled it over the 2x4 edge and stapled to the outside curb. Rolled the Bug body onto the plastic. Then a few lengths of PVC tubing to form a small rectangular above the top of the car, hovering about 6inches off of the surface. Then from the ceiling, attached eyelets and dropped T bar ties. Twisted them around the PVC. Followed that up with another full sheet to fully cover the car and to keep the “juice” in the pan. Dropped my small sump pump into the center of the sloped floor, ran a flexible line up to the top of the Bug and installed a garden sprinkler, full 360. Poured in 5 gallons of Ospho. Turned on the pump! Viola, Ospho bath for several hours. When that was finished I moved the sprinkler into the interior. Sprinkler hit the roof and the liquid would follow that down and around into the inner black holes, just like water, hitting all the nasty parts. That was another 4 hour run. Rotated the body upside down and filled the top with the Ospho. Sloshed it around now and again for a day. Once done, I rolled it outside and squirted water into every nook and cranny for a few hours. Rolled it back into the garage after dripping for a while. Took a small Propane heater and allowed it to dry out. Poured some epoxy primer into the top and sloshed it around, then rolled it slowly, side to side and rollered the primer as best I could as it poured out. The remainder landed on the plastic floor, still in place with no sump. Off to the blaster after that! That was my experience with a Bug from several years ago!

In the 54, I used a garden sprayer full of Ospho and a plastic floor! Way less work. Worked just as good. I modified the wand to spray out a drip system sprayer head, full 360! Worked great!
_________________
Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[TomVaughan64]

[TomVaughan64]

I soaked the front beam in the Rust911 solution. If you look closely at the bottom right, you can see part of the front beam:

Here is what the beam looked like prior to soaking. This beam was already media blasted. This seems to mostly be surface rust:

Here is what it looks like when in comes out of the soaking tub (notice the black residue):

After a hour of scrubbing with Gibbs and a maroon Scotch-Brite pad:

This is probably a little boring, but these are details I wish I would have know before I started this restoration. Hopefully this helps someone to move in a straighter, faster line.
_________________
Tom

"Begin with the end in mind"
Stephen Covey

"Keep focused and seeking knowledge, you will never find disappointed, only small hiccups!"
Jimbo

56 Old Speed Euro Deville Influenced Build

[VWGlassee]

Not boring at all! It can be a great help for others. And it is fun to see the progress on your build

Keep up the good work!

Yannick

[djfordmanjack]

Your methods of getting everything bare metal works great for getting beautiful pictures.the parts look great and to be in good shape, generally speaking.
I am not 100% sure though how your procedure is going to be with that much bare metal around. I understand you are using the GIBBS oil for protection, and while that may work well, by now you already have it in every crease, seam, gap, inside out. So my thoughts, according to your way of doing it. You will either have to work with an extremely diligent paint shop, powder coater, primer dip or what not, as they NEED to understand your method of cleaning and protection. your parts will have to be degreased, and wax removed, primered, seam sealed with as much diligence as you put in all the paint and rust removal. Remember that originally the whole body, as a unit, was primer dipped in a tank, and VW provided drain holes all over the body and pan, so that excessive primer could get into and out of cavities.

I get your claim on 100% clean metal top quality resto like in a pro/pro/PRO shop (if there is any with your standards), but you may have to live up to your standards and do all the seam cleaning, soaking with primer, painting/dipping all the inner areas of the body, BY YOURSELF at this point. I am not sure if even a great body/paint shop will be able to fill all your needs ( and all the bare metal and oiled seams and gaps that is). JMHO.

I am sure you are way ahead my thoughts and already have your plans staked.

(edit. Personally I tend to get things into high quality epoxy primer and paint asap after blasting or sanding. The front axle would be a great candidate for KTL dipping and powdercoating ( high quality 2 step primer/finish) )
_________________
Hotrods, Fords, Veedubs and Triumph Twins !

52 Barndoor DLX Coachbuild project
55 Wolfsburg panel project, og paint Taubenblau L31
62 Dickholmer, custom color Seeblau L360
63 1500 Notch, og paint Rubin Rot L456
67 1500 Käfer, og paint Lotus weiß L282 w/red interior

[VW_Jimbo]

[TomVaughan64]

[TomVaughan64]

[TomVaughan64]

[djfordmanjack]

Tom, seeing what and how you achieved it so far, I think you are a perfectionist and artist and great craftsman. You will get to learn all the trades one after another as you see need. I get that.
There are many different ways to approach a project build. and we have to make do with the space and tools we have. you already exceeded 95% of hobby builders with your shop rebuild and dust curtains... so I have no doubt this Oval is going to be spectacular. absolutely second your thoughts on metalworking, which most often only works well on bare metal.
Personally I try to find build stages. like cutting rust out and do repairs on roughly cleaned parts ( blasted or sanded only at the repair places). This may well take 1, 2, 3 or even more steps of going back and forth with cleaning, blasting, soaking, welding, sanding, hammering, seam sealing, metal shaping aso. You can do all the metal prep work before as you do, but it is not a must. and it sometimes will cause you extra work.

Personally I like to only take a part down bare metal, or have it chemically cleaned, blasted or KTL coated, when metalwork on it is completely finished. That way you end up with a most homogeneous prep and paint build up.

When I talk about 'seam sealing' I do not actually mean caulk or automotive seam sealer that you put 'on top' of spot welded joints. I talk about soaking the overlap seams, creases, cavities, with thinned out epoxy primer, metal prep, or whatever you see fit and works well for you. My tip is I am always using the same kind of quality automotive primer from my local shop. Its used in heavy machinery equipment and trucks and steel construction. A quality industrial product. Have been using for 25 years now. I did experiments with exposing painted metal sheets to sun, rain, bending, hammering aso for a year or more. Similar to what the repair geek guy doing in his test video. Found the perfect primer. it comes as a 2K epoxy and they also fill it as 1k in paint cans ( for touch up). the 1k isn't as UV resistant, but otherwise the rust inhibiting pigments are the same. I use different spray nozzles with extended wands, fe. 3 or 4 inch plastic tubes added, flattened , what not. then I will 'pressure' feed a factory spot weld overlap with such a nozzle, directly from the spray can. The primer is very thin, and will be pushed into the overlap/seam by can pressure. you may want to try and experiment with that. Usually the primer will bleed through on the other side of the overlap, or try working both sides if accessible. I never use weld through primer. don't like it. it always splatters with TIG or MIG. it's better suited to spot welding but you need a strong machine with high amperes.
The way I am using thinned out primer, either from the can, or 2K, shoving and soaking with a brush, or both. then wiping off excessive stuff, you will get very well covered seams and cavities, BEFORE you even put on primer on the sheet metal surface or actual 'automotive' seam sealer.

you can also 'seam seal' parts before sandblasting. the blasting media will not get into the overlap. and not remove the primer. Filling the seams with primer before blasting will also keep it from being filled up with media ( sand would later on tend to soak water and will rust the cavities/seams even worse).

Looking forward to follow your project along,
regards from Europe
Günter