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Tram
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 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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| t-royR wrote: |
| seems that is intended for the starter for cold start. So, I imagine I can keep it disconnected. |
Is the rest of the cold start system intact?
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t-royR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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I don't have any cold start components that I'm aware of
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t-royR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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Confirmed. No cold start compentents on this engine
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Tram
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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Most don't, except those in super cold climates. Modern batteries and motor oils compensate pretty well in even the colder climates these days. The shot of gas from the CS system was to get the generator spinning enough to power the FI system when it got super cold and 1960s motor oil turned to sap and 1960s batteries dropped half their cold cranking amps.
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Last edited by Tram on Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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t-royR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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I'm in Minnesota, so if I drove in the winter, might be handy. But no, I keep it nice and warm in the winter shelter.
Tram you wrote the following, but I don't see any Bentley instructions on how to test the temp sensors
"Test out your temp sensors per Bentley and let us know what you find." Can you point me to some instructions on how to test those.
Is it suspected one is bad given the results of my testing with them unplugged?
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Tram
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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| t-royR wrote: |
I'm in Minnesota, so if I drove in the winter, might be handy. But no, I keep it nice and warm in the winter shelter.
Tram you wrote the following, but I don't see any Bentley instructions on how to test the temp sensors
"Test out your temp sensors per Bentley and let us know what you find." Can you point me to some instructions on how to test those.
Is it suspected one is bad given the results of my testing with them unplugged? |
No, either being "bad" is not yet established. Let me dig out my old K manual later when I get the chance. Odd that the info is not in Bentley. If I recall, Bentley had a separate "Fuel Injection" chapter towards the end. Did you check there?
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t-royR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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my bentley is in rough shape. May be missing that last chapter.
I did find some instructions that call for suspending the temp sensors in oil and checks ohms at various temps. Is that what you know the test procedures to be?
When checking ohms, where do i put the two wires fro the ohm meter?
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Tram
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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| t-royR wrote: |
my bentley is in rough shape. May be missing that last chapter.
I did find some instructions that call for suspending the temp sensors in oil and checks ohms at various temps. Is that what you know the test procedures to be?
When checking ohms, where do i put the two wires fro the ohm meter? |
Hot water on the stove with a meat thermometer works. Let me get your specs.
On the head sensor, red lead to the wire and black lead to the body of the sensor. On the crankcase sensor, one probe to each spade. A spare connector helps here.
You can also use an infrared thermometer and test these in place, too.
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t-royR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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I have an infrared thermometer.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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| Tram wrote: |
| t-royR wrote: |
Bentley page 12 under Fuel System indicates the sensor in the head is # 1 and the sensor in AAR is # 2. On pre-1970 model, the #1 is located below no 4 cylinder exhaust port. That is the one I just tested by disconnecting today.
On page 13, Bentley shows Temp sensor 2 to be on the AAR on pre-1970, which is what I have.
Hope that helps. With all that said, what I am calling # 1 is the sensor below the #4 exhaust port and when disconnected, car won't run.
When disconnecting the # 2 sensor on the AAR, which I did yesterday, car ran and drop-off on putting into gear was less.
Do these tests point to anything? |
Yes, again, it shows that with the crankcase sensor hooked up your fuel mix is baseline lean. Test both sensors for resistance per Bentley and see how they stack up. This is the first step.
Per your info from Bentley, yes, they did switch TS I and II designations from what the factory Kraftstoff and repair manuals designate them, so, for the sake of clarity to reduce confusion, let's call them "head sensor" and "case sensor" here, shall we?
Also, a part number for the case sensor would be nice. The reason is that the original A/B crankcase sensors for 1968-9 are different than the later ones, with an "A" suffix after the 311906081 part number. If you have the A it's a replacement with slightly different parameters than the original P/N. It's also slightly longer. While the "A" sensor will work OK on the A/B system, it's just far enough off that you either need to make a slight adjustment in the MPS, or you can make a jumper wire with a resistor to go between the head sensor and the harness. I can't remember the resistor value. Maybe Ray does.
Is your MPS adjustment screw sealed with epoxy or is the adjuster screw accessible? DON'T touch it yet- just asking!  |
Yep...you are ahead of me and have said everything I see as well. The ballast for the head sensor....I have seen two values and they both work....either 200 ohms or 230 ohms. 9nce you get everything dialed in down the line....I find 150-175 ohms is finer tuning. 200-ieh ohms right now.
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t-royR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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You wrote: "Is your MPS adjustment screw sealed with epoxy or is the adjuster screw accessible? DON'T touch it yet- just asking!"
Yes, it is sealed with epoxy.
Where would I find the part number on the crank temp sensor? I haven't removed that yet, but it looks to be a very short thing.
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Bobnotch
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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| t-royR wrote: |
You wrote: "Is your MPS adjustment screw sealed with epoxy or is the adjuster screw accessible? DON'T touch it yet- just asking!"
Yes, it is sealed with epoxy.
Where would I find the part number on the crank temp sensor? I haven't removed that yet, but it looks to be a very short thing. |
I believe it's on the black plastic part of the sensor. If you have the short sensor (about 1 inch long) it goes into the plenum, while the longer version (about 1.25 to 1.375 inches long) screws into the engine case.
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t-royR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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Adding some pictures of my "head" temp sensor (the one that sits with the AAR) - see picture, that I have been testing
The part number is 0280130 001
I attached two pics of my multi-meter. I want to make sure I am reading it correctly. You can see where I have the dial set. In the photo that reads .073, the temp was 152 F. In the pic that reads .110, temp was 122 F. I think that the .073 converts to 73 Ohm, when comparing to the spec numbers and the .110 converts to 110 Ohms. This is what I want to make sure I have correct before I draw any conclusions from my test results.
You'll see the specs in the pic of my PC screen that I am trying to measure against. I put those in a spreadshee
t and added my results - see pic.
I
Again
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t-royR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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t-royR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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dang. Keeping confusing things. This would be the case sensor that I am currently testing.
The head sensor is going to take a bit more work to get out. Its tucked up in there under all the exhaust.
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t-royR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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Here is a pic of the other temp sensor (the head sensor).
Does that look like the part you expected me to have?
I can start testing this one like the other, but I really need some schooling on how to read this meter. I hooked it up to this sensor right after I pulled it from the car. It is about 40 degrees here outside. I had it in a warm garage for a while. When I measured the resistance, it was about 65 degrees on the surface of the sensor, using my infrared temp gage. And, the Ohms read just 4.0 That seems low. I'm reading wrong or else that thing is toast. I'll report more when I test it through some temp ranges, but please do give some direction on these numbers I'm pulling. the meter is new and using the batteries that came with it. I'm sure it is functional
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Thanks
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t-royR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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maybe this new meter doesn't have the right setting available for the numbers/values I'm trying to read?
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t-royR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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where i noted the values I measured on that sensor, those numbers actually all read as a decimal, and then the number I listed. For example, you'll see I noted that at temp of 122, my meter showed 111. That actually showed as (.111) on the meter.
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t-royR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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Okay. figured out the multimeter.
That table of sensor resistance specs came from that FI pdf someone offered up earlier on. As I read that doc, it calls the head sensor, "#1", as can be seen by some pictures earlier on in the document. However, when they get to the chart, I believe they have the numbers mixed for the two sensors.
As I test the head sensor, I am getting close to the numbers the table shows for the case sensor. And, the numbers I"m getting on the case sensor match what the table shows for the head sensor. So, if I"m correct, the table is referring to sensor 1 as the case sensor and the sensor # 2 as the head sensor
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t-royR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Flat spot on FI automatic |
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2nd round of tests on that sensor from the case (AAR) is the same as the first. I notice that at the high temps, the resistance is less than half of what is shown as spec. Specs show that for temps of 158 F to 212 F, resistance should be 80.
My sensor goes from 66 at 158 F to 30 at 212 F. Seems pretty far below spec.
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