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notches65
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2024
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:44 pm Post subject: up-grade suggestions |
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hello.
first time posting and needing some help for re-doing type 3 engine. unfortunately, the mechanic that exchanged the damaged, original ‘65 notchback block did so with what i believe is a ‘67, with most of the original parts. after i got it back from him, he refused to give me any more info, much less help, so not exactly sure what’s on there now. was originally a 1500, bored to 1600 with porsche pistons. i think most everything is still original, apart from running dual Empi carbs with pancake filters. lid closes properly and they don’t rub on frame.
also, electrical was patch-worked from original 6v to 12v, and still using regulator and generator. going to completely replace harness to 12v to include an alternator and hazard lights. not sure if it’d be related, but gas gauge doesn’t read properly.
my plan is to have it re-sealed, as he never took time to do that correctly, either. so i figured might as well tweak it a bit more. hoping to stay somewhat true to what would be available circa 1970, as i plan to take it on the track for light time-racing. i want to keep it so that lid closes, but also gives her a little more kick. also, any suggestions as to transmission/gearbox/pedal assembly would be great. still running mostly original. thanks in advance! able to provide photos, if it helps. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22439
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 11:54 am Post subject: Re: up-grade suggestions |
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| notches65 wrote: |
hello.
first time posting and needing some help for re-doing type 3 engine. unfortunately, the mechanic that exchanged the damaged, original ‘65 notchback block did so with what i believe is a ‘67, with most of the original parts. after i got it back from him, he refused to give me any more info, much less help, so not exactly sure what’s on there now. was originally a 1500, bored to 1600 with porsche pistons. i think most everything is still original, apart from running dual Empi carbs with pancake filters. lid closes properly and they don’t rub on frame.
also, electrical was patch-worked from original 6v to 12v, and still using regulator and generator. going to completely replace harness to 12v to include an alternator and hazard lights. not sure if it’d be related, but gas gauge doesn’t read properly.
my plan is to have it re-sealed, as he never took time to do that correctly, either. so i figured might as well tweak it a bit more. hoping to stay somewhat true to what would be available circa 1970, as i plan to take it on the track for light time-racing. i want to keep it so that lid closes, but also gives her a little more kick. also, any suggestions as to transmission/gearbox/pedal assembly would be great. still running mostly original. thanks in advance! able to provide photos, if it helps. |
Where are you located? Just asking as that can make getting parts harder or easier.
Just so you know, going from a 1500 to a 1600 isn't very hard, as it's just a matter of swapping pistons and cylinders. I've got a 1600 in my 65 Notch, that looks stock, right down to the dual Solex carbs and oil bath air filter. My engine case is an aftermarket all aluminum case too, but the engine tin hides most of it. It's running a stock late model 12 volt generator too. I've driven it half way across the United States and back with virtually no problems other than vapor locking the mechanical fuel pump several times (I've since gone electric).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4924
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: up-grade suggestions |
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i think a 1904cc (74 x90.5) is the biggest you would want for displacement if you plan on running the stock air intake and carbs, and it would limit your top end at that size. But it is easy to keep up with modern traffic with that motor. I ran mine for several years as my daily driver with dellorto 36's instead of the stock carbs and custom cold air intake.
the transmission is fine in stock form as long as you don't want to be drag racing or hammering the gears, my 1904cc and 1968cc have been running with a stock gearbox for something like 12 years
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22439
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: up-grade suggestions |
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| W1K1 wrote: |
i think a 1904cc (74 x90.5) is the biggest you would want for displacement if you plan on running the stock air intake and carbs, and it would limit your top end at that size. But it is easy to keep up with modern traffic with that motor. I ran mine for several years as my daily driver with dellorto 36's instead of the stock carbs and custom cold air intake.
the transmission is fine in stock form as long as you don't want to be drag racing or hammering the gears, my 1904cc and 1968cc have been running with a stock gearbox for something like 12 years |
I have to agree with Mark on that, as long as you're not really trying to abuse it, the stock 4 speed trans is a very good piece. In my case I went with a 73 super beetle IRS unit (3.88:1 final gearing), as I built my car to drive on freeways and such, and didn't have a trans with it when I bought it. I should mention that my car was built by myself, and that was 20+ years ago. Needless to say I'm very happy with the way it performs.
If you're after something with a little more punch you could do like Mark recommends, or go slightly smaller with a 1776. Most of all of the engines we've mentioned fit under the floor hatch of a type 3. In Marks case, he has a Squareback, and uses the car as it was built...to haul stuff, so the engine HAS to sit below the load floor. The big thing however isn't the engine, but rather the carb combo as you need short manifolds to get clearance needed for the floor. I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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notches65
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2024
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: up-grade suggestions |
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gentlemen,
much obliged for the replies and suggestions, and sorry for late reply.
i’m in denton, tx, so parts aren’t too difficult to come by. seems it’s more about finding the ppl willing to do the job and do it right. i’ll get around to posting the ‘completed’ work that 1st mechanic accomplished. he wouldn’t even turn the motor over so i could actually hear it. the 2nd mechanic had to grind the flywheel a little so it would turn. then, joined a car club, hoping that would broaden the pool, but seems they weren’t very interested in helping out, either. the only other real option is swamped with work and won’t be taking-in new customers, even for simple engine tune/clean-up. found a place in colorado that’s gonna do all the work, instead. plan is to take it down to the metal, leave it nice and clean, and put a clear coat. inside will just have the 2 front seats, no panels, dash or carpet. just me, a bluetooth speaker, and the motor.  hope to have her back before year’s end. my dad bought her new, was my mom’s car growing-up, and car i learned to drive in, so, come hell or high water, i’m getting her spruced-up and back on the road. i’m sure y’all know the grin that comes with driving these beauties. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22439
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: up-grade suggestions |
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| notches65 wrote: |
gentlemen,
much obliged for the replies and suggestions, and sorry for late reply.
i’m in denton, tx, so parts aren’t too difficult to come by. seems it’s more about finding the ppl willing to do the job and do it right. i’ll get around to posting the ‘completed’ work that 1st mechanic accomplished. he wouldn’t even turn the motor over so i could actually hear it. the 2nd mechanic had to grind the flywheel a little so it would turn. then, joined a car club, hoping that would broaden the pool, but seems they weren’t very interested in helping out, either. the only other real option is swamped with work and won’t be taking-in new customers, even for simple engine tune/clean-up. found a place in colorado that’s gonna do all the work, instead. plan is to take it down to the metal, leave it nice and clean, and put a clear coat. inside will just have the 2 front seats, no panels, dash or carpet. just me, a bluetooth speaker, and the motor. hope to have her back before year’s end. my dad bought her new, was my mom’s car growing-up, and car i learned to drive in, so, come hell or high water, i’m getting her spruced-up and back on the road. i’m sure y’all know the grin that comes with driving these beauties. |
From the sounds of things, the first mechanic didn't know about flywheel size differences on swing axle transmissions. As a result he just sandwiched the existing engine in, and it never turned. You'll need to open up (grind out) the clutch opening part of the bell housing of the transaxle. This is because the 12 volt flywheel you have on your current engine is about 1/8th to 3/16ths of an inch larger in diameter. You'll also need to get a dedicated Automatic trans mission starter, as it's self supporting and will mesh up nicely with your 12 volt flywheel.
Note we had to do that on my son's car too. Later on we had a custom bushing made to adapt the 12 volt starter to the 6 volt trans.
Edit: Be careful when grinding out the trans bell housing area, as it's magnesium and the shavings and dust are flammable.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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| Back to top |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4924
Location: Southern AB
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5370
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: up-grade suggestions |
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| W1K1 wrote: |
i think a 1904cc (74 x90.5) is the biggest you would want for displacement if you plan on running the stock air intake and carbs, and it would limit your top end at that size. But it is easy to keep up with modern traffic with that motor. I ran mine for several years as my daily driver with dellorto 36's instead of the stock carbs and custom cold air intake.
the transmission is fine in stock form as long as you don't want to be drag racing or hammering the gears, my 1904cc and 1968cc have been running with a stock gearbox for something like 12 years |
With either of those engine sizes and the carbs that you have you would want to run a very mild cam W100 or the like, since you wouldn't have the carbs to support a larger cam. Then you would have one hell of a torque machine/ daily driver.
As far as transmissions, I've been running a stock trans on my bugs 2110 for many years, but it was retired due to an engine fire (no it wasn't the fuel filter).
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 9657
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: up-grade suggestions |
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Welcome to theSamba and to type 3 ownership.
| Quote: |
| was originally a 1500, bored to 1600 with porsche pistons. |
Did the first mechanic tell you that he installed Porsche pistons? Because as already mentioned, converting a 1500 to a 1600 is very easy; the 1600's cylinders and pistons from a VW Beetle or Type 3 fit into the engine case and into the heads with no modifications. The 1500's pistons are 83 mm diameter; those from a 1600 are 85.5 mm. The cylinders were thinner walls to accomodate the larger internal diameter of the pistons. There are 85.5 mm pistons/cylinders made for Porsche 912, but the pistons are shaped differently than those for a VW. I don't know if the 912's pistons have the same wrist pin diameter or pin height as a Type 3's 85.5's, because the P engines had 74 mm stroke crankshafts compared to the Type 3's 69 mm crank.
You can also fit 88 mm cylinders into an unmachined 1500 case, to end up with 1679 cc. But the better types of those cylinders require that the HEADS are enlarged because the cylinders are thicker up at the top where they fit into the heads.
As to your heads- are they still single-port which is what a '65 Notchback came with? Or are they dual-port?
Those EMPI carbs- are they likely single-throats, such as 34 EPC?
| Quote: |
| my plan is to have it re-sealed |
Do you mean that the entire engine is fully disassembled so that the two case halves are separated and can be cleaned of existing sealant, then fresh/suitable case sealant applied? Or just to have the pushrod seals replaced on both ends of the pushrods? |
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