Starter wiring - one less post on new starter

[Geezer_slk]

Here are pics of the old and new. Can I use the new with one less connection, or did I get the wrong starter. CIP1 said the new one is for a 1979 bay. If I can use it can someone tell me how to do the connections properly. Thank You.

.

Right now I am reading this exhaustive post and trying to follow and figure it all out. Going to clean and such. I'm new to all this. Learning.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=581254
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1979 VW Type 2 Bus (engine type 4 2.0L Fuel Inj)
Certified Idiot (be gentle please)

[mikedjames]

That is really a starter motor for a non-fuel injected bus, where you only need one tag for the wire from the ignition switch. Like my 73 with a T1 engine, only one wire on one of the two tags available.

If you have fuel injection there is also a wire on the other tag going to the double relay going into the engine bay.

What you need to do is connect the double relay wire female connector to the ignition wire, so when you are cranking, the FI starts to turn on.

A solution could be to fit a hot start relay and make a tidier connection from the between the ignition switch and the double relay on the tags of the hot start relay rather than using various spade connector adaptors under the bus.
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Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[Geezer_slk]

Which is the ignition wire?

I read your post and got back under there. I tried following all wires back, and as you said the extra tag is going to FI. The red arrow labelled wires in my attached picture head to FI. The red circle shows the extra tag

If I under stand correctly, you're telling me to connect the female spade FI red wire (red circle in diagram), with the ignition wire. Is the ignition wire the one with the yellow arrow and yellow circle on the other tag?

The green double arrow shows an ohmmeter test telling me this post and tag are connected (just as it is in the new starter). So if that is the ignition wire, then I'm connecting the FI relay wire to that as well right? And if so do you anticipate any issues with that?

The blue arrows go to battery and alternator.

The wires with a yellow arrow on them all go up to the front of the vehicle together. I wasn't able to follow them exactly up there without a bunch more investigation.

Thank you. I appreciate the help.

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1979 VW Type 2 Bus (engine type 4 2.0L Fuel Inj)
Certified Idiot (be gentle please)

[bsairhead]

You need a spade piggyback or chair connector.

[Wildthings]

Look at Current Track #8 in this schematic. The Red/Black wire and the Red/White wire are shown going to the same #50 post. As mentioned you can use a piggyback connector to accomplish this.

double click to enlarge

Other options would be:

1. Swap the old solenoid onto the new starter

2. Add a hot start relay and and use the extra terminal on the relay for the Red/White wire.

Use dielectric grease on all your connections.

[SGKent]

The FI system used that extra spade to trigger the fuel pump as you start. Then the double relay takes over.

Usually when a starter goes bad, 99% of the time it is just the solenoid getting sticky. If you want to try fixing the old one we can walk you thru it. Once the starter is out it is only 10 -15 minutes to fix. A can of spray cleaner like WD40 will clean the old grease out, and some spray white lithium grease goes back in. Good for another 60,000 miles.

You loosen the two long screws that hold the solenoid in. Then spray the WD40 or electronic cleaner where the arrow is and work the plunger some to loosen it up. Turn it upside down and spray some more to flush out the old grease and dirt. Leave it upside down and make sure all the fluid is out, both WD40 and electronic spray are flammable but it won't hurt the windings or cardboard tube inside. Let it dry a few minutes then spray again with some white lithium grease. Put it back together and try it.

[busdaddy]

Man is that old starter ever nasty looking, I'll bet if you remove all the connections and wire brush them up all shiny it'll magically work again. Maybe even remove the starter and clean up the mounting flange as well as the spot on the transmission it goes on. Same for the short ground strap between the transmission nose and the torsion housing.
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[Geezer_slk]

Everyone, thank you for replying! Learning a bunch.

I think I got a handle on the different number of #50 posts on my new starter and how to handle the situation.

I have to admit I am tempted to go down the rabbit hole and see if I can get that old starter working again. Do I throw 220 dollars for a new starter at it and call it a day or continue fiddling about.

The old starter would stop working randomly, then work again. When it wasn't working, there was activation in the starter with some grinding sounds without engaging the flywheel. Maybe a rusty connection point issue or a dirty solenoid causing the plunging starter teeth to not fully engage flywheel, maybe the internals of the starter grinding somewhere. I don't know.

I have had the starter out since I yesterday, and cleaned it up externally, connection points and such. I have not yet tried the solenoid cleaning process. But I might if someone strongly suggests I transfer my old solenoid to my new starter motor. However, it sounds like piggybacking both red/white and red/black wires to the single 50 post is the way to go.

What I did see in the old starter was the bearing on the shaft is all mangled and warped. Not sure what would cause that. It was dirty as can be in there though. Here is a few photos if anyone has a theory.

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1979 VW Type 2 Bus (engine type 4 2.0L Fuel Inj)
Certified Idiot (be gentle please)

[busdaddy]

You definitely have to replace the bushing in the bellhousing regardless of which route you go, that one's done, and likely the cause of the grinding and engaement issues.

Everything else looks good aside from the dirt and corrosion, I still think the original will work after a clean up.

Out of curiosity does the new starter's gear look exactly the same as the one on your old one?, it wouldn't be the first time a supplier sold the wrong part.
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[Geezer_slk]

Got it. Replace bushing whatever route I decide to go.

Starter gears are exactly the same.

If I clean up and reuse old starter, what about that bearing on the starter shaft that is a bit wobbly? (seen in previous posts picture) Is that a concern, couldn't see how to replace that anywhere online searching, is that a dealbreaker for reusing the old starter?
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1979 VW Type 2 Bus (engine type 4 2.0L Fuel Inj)
Certified Idiot (be gentle please)

[dodger tom]

welcome geezer,

my ‘78 fi bus has connections to only one of the male spades.

been running fine for 30+ years that way.

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1978 Champaign Edition 2 Westfalia
Would never find the time to keep up another classic air-cooled.

[busdaddy]

[kreemoweet]

I have one of those coils with the "extra" terminal. It's labeled "16". It's connected (internally) to the big post on the solenoid that holds
the ring terminal and braided wire from the starter. The advantage of having it would seem to be that any load connected (such as FI pump?)
would draw current directly from battery/#30 terminal instead of through the long-ass ignition switch #50 circuit.

So, was such a solenoid stock on all fuel-injected busses? None of the Bentley wiring diagrams show any such thing, they all show only
the #30 and #50 terminals on the solenoid. If so, I think that should be mentioned in the "Bentley Manual - List of Errors" thread.
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[busdaddy]

#16 is used on cars with a ballast resistor in the ignition system, it bypasses the resistor and provides full 12v to the coil while cranking. But it's usually a small 3rd contact inside the solenoid that's only powered when the solenoid is closed and isolated when static, if it was tied into the motor circuit (braided strap) it would kill the ignition circuit because of the motor's resistance.
Honda went with a much simpler version and put a diode in the bypass circuit so it could tie into the regular start signal.

#16 will work for powering the double relay's start circuit, but the way that system works it can be permanently tied into the #50 as well.
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[Wildthings]

To know what kind of life a starter has left in it, one needs to pull the starter down far enough to inspect the brushes and the commutator, worn brushes can be replaced with a bit of work, but a badly worn commutator will for most people mean they are buying a rebuilt starter and using the old for a trade in.

[Abscate]

All of that wiring needs replacing. Not too expensive as a paid job , or get Don Casey’s Boat wiring book and teach yourself to fish
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[ToolBox]

[jtauxe]

In the spirit of using existing threads to address similar problems, I am reviving this one.

I have a similar issue. Having determined that my starting problem is not the ignition switch, I decided to replace the starter. As seen in the pic below, the old starter has an extra blade terminal, to which the red/blk wire from post 50 on the ignition switch is connected.

The new (rebuilt) starter is lacking this terminal. Is this something to do with FI? The truck in question is the 1975 with the freshly rebuilt carbureted engine, so not FI issues.

Where should I attach the 50 red/blk wire?

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John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD

[SGKent]

Hi John. one wire goes into the loom up front to the switch. The other goes to the double relay and applies voltage to it during cranking. If you have the other wire then it looks like the bus was built with wiring for FI.

Bad VW starters are rare. Sticky solenoids are 100% guaranteed. In 750,000 miles in my 1971 bus, I replaced the starter once. The solenoid was replaced or serviced every couple years when the solenoid started to get sticky. It is about a 20 minute repair once the starter is off.

I think I can get to your brake calipers sometime next week.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[Wildthings]

You just need to hook up the red/black wire, the red/white wire is for the fuel injection.