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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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 Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:01 am Post subject: How to fix a sticky starter FAQ |
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| [url=http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=581254&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=]How to fix a sticky starter FAQ[/url] |
How many threads exist here where the starter has failed? We often see several a day. This post is to help those of you who are struggling to fix yours.
The problems with bad starters in VW buses in my experience fall into 3 categories (A) bad or low battery (B) bad ignition switch (C) sticky solenoid.
I've posted this photo many times trying to help but it doesn't appear to be enough. The starter in the photo is one I rebuilt. :
starter test with basic tools:
So let's explore. The battery provides 12V +/- to the starter. To test use a volt meter when the key is turned to start to be sure the voltage is good or take the battery in to be tested with one of these. You can get them fairly cheap used or I believe HF has them too.
photo from popularmechanics
12V + is provided on the plus side by the heavy cable running from the battery to the starter. Those go bad too internally sometimes from battery acid or arcing. The ground side goes into the bus frame and then from the frame to the engine through the ground strap on the nose of the trans. Those straps get corrosion where they attach and that can cause a clutch cable to stretch and break as it becomes the replacement ground strap as far as the electrons are concerned. Since it wasn't built to handle heavy electricity it gets hot and stretches.
Here is a wiring schematic. You'll see the battery cable attach to the solenoid then run forward. The other red wire coming back to pin 50 is from the ignition switch.
starter wiring:
When the key is turned it provides power to the solenoid which causes it to pull in. When it does so it pulls the starter teeth into the flywheel and also pushes a copper bar into the studs the wires attach to, completeing the circuit for the electricity to the starter motor to which it is attached. Here is a photo from online (bmwmotorcycletech) of a similar solenoid taken apart. You can see the copper bar and studs. Notice that it is peened on and not designed to be further disassembled. Some older ones had a nut here but the later ones are peened on permanently.
This is what a NOS one and/or replacement look like
This is what they look like when they have been used for awhile. Even with protection, dirt and dust get inside where the plunger rides. Heat from the exhaust and engine also cook the grease inside causing the plunger to stick and gall. Moisture causes rust. I've drawn an arrow where they need to be cleaned - all the way around and inside - but you can't get inside although a cleaner like WD-40 or electronic tuner cleaner can.
Here is a picture of one that failed and came apart - from Samba gallery. NOTE: some solenoids are designed to fall apart this way. The ring at the end tells me this may not be the correct solenoid for a Bosch starter. Further investigation would be warranted in this case. :
How to fix:
Remove the battery cables. Use this opportunity to clean them.
Remove the starter. Mark where the wires go or take a picture
Remove the two screws on the end holding the solenoid on. If you have a new solenoid use it. If not clean the old solenoid.
drawing from Autozone online:
To clean, run WD 40 or electronic tuner cleaner into the area where the plunger goes into the well / plunger tube. Wash out and wipe down as much of the dirt as you can. WARNING: WHEN YOU SPRAY THE PLUNGER HOLD IT DOWNWARDS SO THE CLEANER FLUID RUNS OUT AND SO YOU DON'T FILL THE CAP WITH A FLAMMABLE CLEANER.
If you want to be brave, unsolder the cap and clean the copper bar, if not just leave alone as this area is not normally the problem until the solenoid is worn out and the bar eaten away which if so you need a new solenoid. If you pull the cap off use white cloth tape to seal it again. IF YOU PULL THE CAP OFF OR THE STARTER APART any further, be sure to mark the parts so you can put them back in the same position. I use an electric carbide tipped engraving gun to mark everything I take apart so I can clock the parts the same as they were.
Use white lithium grease spray on the plunger and work it a few times by hand to get grease into it.
Reassemble. Figure you'll do it again in 2 to 4 years depending upon how much you drive the bus and how much dirt gets into it.
NOTE: IF YOU HAVE AN AUTOMATIC transmission, be sure the neutral switch in the shifter is good or it can cause intermittent starting issues. NAPA has a replacement. Ask for ECH NS6827 - be sure to compare it to your old one.
Last edited by SGKent on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:36 am; edited 7 times in total |
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aeromech
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Good job
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Red Fau Veh
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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I'll add that when you put the cap back on the end of the solenoid, it is possible to put it on reversed. Single wire and paired wires need to stay in the correct orientation on reassembly.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| In my opinion taping the joint in the solenoid helps prolong its life as well. I relubed my solenoid back 20+ years ago when I had the typical hot start problem. Don't remember what grease I used but I have not had a hot start issue again over the ensuing 200K miles, same starter and solenoid, just a couple of sets of replacement brushes IIRC. |
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williamM
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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As Mr Frost - of Frost Marine - would say- "(referring to soggy brake lining)- you should wash them out with new parts" 
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Danwvw
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SGKent
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| In my opinion taping the joint in the solenoid helps prolong its life as well. I relubed my solenoid back 20+ years ago when I had the typical hot start problem. Don't remember what grease I used but I have not had a hot start issue again over the ensuing 200K miles, same starter and solenoid, just a couple of sets of replacement brushes IIRC. |
Mike - I wish I knew what grease you used. I've tried moly, wheel greases, CV joint, silicone based, blue for boats trailer bearings etc. I've found the white spray works well cause it gets into everything then dries like on a door lock. If you remember, post it. It would be nice to get 200,000 miles out of a solenoid without having to touch it again. |
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airschooled
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Great post. Now let's just hope the new folks can read the FAQs and find it 
Don't really dirty grounds slow starter operation too? Not sure if you could loop that in with A B or C.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Great post. Now let's just hope the new folks can read the FAQs and find it
Don't really dirty grounds slow starter operation too? Not sure if you could loop that in with A B or C. |
Any time the voltage falls it affects the solenoid's ability to pull in. That is why sometimes on cars all you hear when the battery is down is a solenoid chattering - sounds like a clicking. One should clean the battery cables and grounds every few years - or at least when the problem occurs. Low voltage can sometimes be a bad ground, cable or ground strap.
For example - I did not know about the clutch cable stretching issue with a bad ground until seeing it here on the forum a few times. Never came across it with my 1971. However I do know that the prior owner of my 1977 bus went thru many clutch cables the last few years she owned it. I also know the ground strap was very corroded when I cleaned it during the restoration so that may have been the cause - or perhaps a bad bowden etc. |
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cdennisg
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent post. Thanks for the clear, concise description of the system, its problematic symptoms, and a good solution. Well done.
I will say, I have found white lithium grease in spray form to be a handy product. It works great on sticky shift mechanisms and door locks, too.
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Hoody
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Keep up the good work Steve! This site needs more people like yourself who selflessly help out the community....and don't sugar coat it. |
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telford dorr
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| Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Excellent write-up - I nominate it for a 'sticky'.
Couple of points:
- taping the contact housing to the solenoid body, even though it has a gasket, is critical - otherwise moisture seems to get in there and muck everything up. A couple turns of GOOD electrical tape works well.
- the contact housing is made from a bakelite type of material, and cracks easily. Don't impact it with anything, and don't over-tighten the nuts on the contact lugs.
- I used "Super Lube" synthetic grease from Synco Chemical Corporation, Bohemia, NY, http://www.super-lube.com, on the last solenoid I reassembled. A thin film works well - don't overdo it (with any lube). This grease has a very thin consistency, and seems to stay that way even in cold temperatures (it's rated -45F to 450F). Seems to be available in sizes from 1 cc packet to 400 lb drums (if you do a lot of solenoids..) If you're in San Diego, it's available from Marshall's Industrial Hardware in a 3 oz tube, p/n 21030. [If you've never been there, it's a remarkable place. They've got everything you can think of, by the piece if you want (no 'blister packs'!]
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kkjellquist
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| Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Don't really dirty grounds slow starter operation too? Not sure if you could loop that in with A B or C. |
Did for me! I was thinking about doing this job and decided to take an emory cloth to my ground cable and the body where it attached. Ding ding...winner!
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Hoody
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| Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| If the brushes need to be replaced on a Late Bay starter does anyone know what the correct part number is and a source for them. I think I remember them being listed on the BD site. |
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Danwvw
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SGKent
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| Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Hoody wrote: |
| If the brushes need to be replaced on a Late Bay starter does anyone know what the correct part number is and a source for them. I think I remember them being listed on the BD site. |
Bob - it would be really rare and more trouble than it is worth as I recall they are soldered in. My 77 resto had either 114,000 or 214,000 miles on it based on service records. (I recollect that I could not determine if one of the service records was 106,000 or 186,000 due to paper damage and the ODO read 109,000. The engine was rebuilt about the time of that record so the question is did the cheap rebuild get 3,000+ miles before it failed again or 36,000+/- before it failed again? She was barely driving it at the time so I don't know as the original failure was bearings and that is what failed again for her.). That said, when the starter brushes were checked they were barely worn. I have only once worn out brushes on a 1971 bus and it was at close to 400,000 miles. |
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Hoody
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| Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok Thanks Steve. No need to go that far then. |
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tootype2crazy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| telford dorr wrote: |
Excellent write-up - I nominate it for a 'sticky'.
Couple of points:
- taping the contact housing to the solenoid body, even though it has a gasket, is critical - otherwise moisture seems to get in there and muck everything up. A couple turns of GOOD electrical tape works well.
- the contact housing is made from a bakelite type of material, and cracks easily. Don't impact it with anything, and don't over-tighten the nuts on the contact lugs.
- I used "Super Lube" synthetic grease from Synco Chemical Corporation, Bohemia, NY, http://www.super-lube.com, on the last solenoid I reassembled. A thin film works well - don't overdo it (with any lube). This grease has a very thin consistency, and seems to stay that way even in cold temperatures (it's rated -45F to 450F). Seems to be available in sizes from 1 cc packet to 400 lb drums (if you do a lot of solenoids..) If you're in San Diego, it's available from Marshall's Industrial Hardware in a 3 oz tube, p/n 21030. [If you've never been there, it's a remarkable place. They've got everything you can think of, by the piece if you want (no 'blister packs'!] |
I second super lube. It contains PTFE (teflon). It is clear and seems low in the soap factor which so many other greases have a lot of. After the engine heats cycles so many times the oil in the mix with the soap melts away and leaves only soap. Super lube seems to me to contain little to no soap. Also it is clear and non staining. I also have it lubing my sunroof cables and the slides as it wont stain clothes when you lean on it. It is really amazing stuff.
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chabanais
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| Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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I just restart the Bus when I park and it's fine.
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Danwvw
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