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tikiman71
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2008
Posts: 90
Location: San Diego
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 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 8:58 am Post subject: Another no start starter problem. SOLVED! Bad hard start relay! |
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Hi my name is Adam and my van and I suffer from chronic VDD (Vanagon Driving Dysfunction). The poor van has not been driven regularly for several months due to various reasons and family drama. Aging electrical connections and corrosion are pretty common suspects.
1987, Subaru EJ22, Bosch TDI starter and adapter, Jay Brown hard start relay, and everything has been running pretty damn great for over 12 years.
Last year it started having issues not wanting to start, but I could usually get it to turn over after a few attempts, or keeping the key in the starting position for 10 seconds or so. Now nothing. I suspected it was a sticky solenoid, so I have done the following:
1. Charge battery, test voltage at starter=12.5v.
2. Remove and wire brush ground strap to trans. Everything shiny as a penny. No change.
3. Remove starter, bench test. Solenoid was a little sticky-I knew it! A-ha! Cleaned all connections, clean and graphite lube solenoid piston, bench tested starter and solenoid and it works fine on bench, but no change in van.
4. Test voltage at solenoid trigger wire to starter from hard-start relay=12.6v when key is turned.
5. Manually apply 12v to solenoid with starter in van. Starter triggers instantly. WTH?
So everything seems to work independently, but not together. I've read about voltage loss, adding ground straps, swapping ignition switch, etc, but I seem to get adequate voltages and be properly grounded in all the right places and still no start. Any ideas of next steps to take? I'm going crazy trying to find the logic in this.
Thank you!
Adam
_________________
1987 Westfalia GL
Last edited by tikiman71 on Fri Feb 28, 2025 8:53 am; edited 2 times in total |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17144
Location: Brookeville, MD
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tikiman71
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2008
Posts: 90
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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Yes, Mark has done amazing things on the van, and sorted out a number of things over the years. I’ll probably get in touch with him again soon if I can’t make any headway this week.
Thanks!
_________________
1987 Westfalia GL |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17144
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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Did you check the ground strap at the battery? And take it totally off and inspect where it attaches to the body. It often is corroded there. Scrape off some of the paint, apply dielectric grease to prevent corrosion, and reattach a good cable.
You should also do a voltage drop test while attempting to get the starter to work. Resting voltage means almost nothing. It only takes one strand of wire to give you a good voltage at rest but that strand will not pass enough energy during starting...
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2010 Subaru EJ25 (Vanaru) and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8248
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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A more-common problem than even VDD is exactly what your terms indicate.
Please clarify.
You wrote:
“Last year it started having issues not wanting to start, but I could usually get it to turn over after a few attempts, or keeping the key in the starting position for 10 seconds or so. Now nothing.”
Not being critical (!), but rather wanting to know exactly what it’s doing and not doing so you’ll get more replies.
Second the referral to Mark!
_________________
1984 Westfailure/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." — Colin Chapman |
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jimf909
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 8168
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Did you check the ground strap at the battery? |
There could be a dozen causes of this problem but since you didn't mention cleaning the ground at the battery (and body) and since that once was a cause of a starter-no-spin condition I once experienced, I'll second this.
_________________
- Jim
| Butcher wrote: |
| This is the main fault with DIY'ers, they get together on these forums and pat themselves on their backs spreading bad information. |
Guilty as charged.
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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tikiman71
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2008
Posts: 90
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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Thanks for everyone's replies, help, and concern--and I apologize for the confusion in terms. I'm a biologist, not a mechanic, although I've been working on this van for 25 years.
The issue is that the starter itself is not operating when you turn the key at the ignition switch.
The starter operates fine and with no hesitation when the solenoid is triggered using a 12V jumper. Wouldn't that indicate that the starter's 12V input from the battery and ground path are both ok?
The solenoid trigger wire that travels from the hard-start relay to the starter solenoid produces 12+V on my voltmeter when the key is turned at the ignition switch, but it does not trigger the solenoid when directly connected. Wouldn't the voltmeter reading indicate that the ignition switch and hard-start relay are functioning correctly, and producing 12V to the solenoid?
Tonight I will certainly disassemble and clean the battery ground connection, in addition to the driver's side grounds at the engine, but I do not understand how the starter can operate fine when manually triggered, and how the ignition circuit can produce the required 12V to the solenoid, yet it still does not activate the starter.
Thanks again for your help and patience!
Adam
| E1 wrote: |
A more-common problem than even VDD is exactly what your terms indicate.
Please clarify.
You wrote:
“Last year it started having issues not wanting to start, but I could usually get it to turn over after a few attempts, or keeping the key in the starting position for 10 seconds or so. Now nothing.”
Not being critical (!), but rather wanting to know exactly what it’s doing and not doing so you’ll get more replies.
Second the referral to Mark! |
_________________
1987 Westfalia GL |
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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 4555
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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| tikiman71 wrote: |
Thanks for everyone's replies, help, and concern--and I apologize for the confusion in terms. I'm a biologist, not a mechanic, although I've been working on this van for 25 years.
The issue is that the starter itself is not operating when you turn the key at the ignition switch.
The starter operates fine and with no hesitation when the solenoid is triggered using a 12V jumper. Wouldn't that indicate that the starter's 12V input from the battery and ground path are both ok?
The solenoid trigger wire that travels from the hard-start relay to the starter solenoid produces 12+V on my voltmeter when the key is turned at the ignition switch, but it does not trigger the solenoid when directly connected. Wouldn't the voltmeter reading indicate that the ignition switch and hard-start relay are functioning correctly, and producing 12V to the solenoid?
Tonight I will certainly disassemble and clean the battery ground connection, in addition to the driver's side grounds at the engine, but I do not understand how the starter can operate fine when manually triggered, and how the ignition circuit can produce the required 12V to the solenoid, yet it still does not activate the starter.
Thanks again for your help and patience!
Adam
| E1 wrote: |
A more-common problem than even VDD is exactly what your terms indicate.
Please clarify.
You wrote:
“Last year it started having issues not wanting to start, but I could usually get it to turn over after a few attempts, or keeping the key in the starting position for 10 seconds or so. Now nothing.”
Not being critical (!), but rather wanting to know exactly what it’s doing and not doing so you’ll get more replies.
Second the referral to Mark! |
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Have you tried another relay in place of the one that's in the Hard /Hot Start kit?
If you can't get enough current to pass through the Relay Contacts, you won't have enough amperage to run the solenoid circuit, and you've already tested your solenoid via the bypass jumper that you tried, so the starter appears to be fine after your cleaning and lubing it.
Where does your Hot Start Relay get its Solenoid circuit power from, not the coil side, but the main load/30 side?
If you remove the relay, and jump the 30/battery and 87/load wires with a 12 ga or 10ga jumper wire with flat pins crimped to engage your relay socket pins, does your starter easily crank doing that?
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10372
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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I would replace the added relay.
They do fail, my family had 2 die from Jay after several years of reliable service.
Cheap and easy to try in any case.
Mark |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8248
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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OKAY!
No apology necessary but exactly what I was wondering…
If you turn the key and get *nothing*, no crank, no dash lights, nothing…
Check the eyelet on the cable attaching to the starter. I had this very thing once, it was a tiny tiny hairline crack on the eyelet, *barrrely visible*.
I replaced it after a good six hours’ sleuthing work, while stuck in a burger joint parking lot after sleeping there the night before, after being towed at least ten miles to there by the burger shop owner, after coming out from a 120-mile backpack, and VROOM!
If not the eyelet it could surely be the entire cable, the other end of the cable, or a half-dozen other things.
It is absolutely not the burger’s fault.
SOAPBOX:
Never diss The Post-Hike Burger. 
_________________
1984 Westfailure/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." — Colin Chapman
Last edited by E1 on Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:10 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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tikiman71
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2008
Posts: 90
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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Thanks! I'll clean the grounds and then try your suggestion at the relay tonight.
Regarding voltage drop, I just watched this video which was very helpful and enlightening to me:
https://youtu.be/WMXENKujYtc?si=JsZbPeKkP2-12Syf
| Quote: |
Have you tried another relay in place of the one that's in the Hard /Hot Start kit?
If you can't get enough current to pass through the Relay Contacts, you won't have enough amperage to run the solenoid circuit, and you've already tested your solenoid via the bypass jumper that you tried, so the starter appears to be fine after your cleaning and lubing it.
Where does your Hot Start Relay get its Solenoid circuit power from, not the coil side, but the main load/30 side?
If you remove the relay, and jump the 30/battery and 87/load wires with a 12 ga or 10ga jumper wire with flat pins crimped to engage your relay socket pins, does your starter easily crank doing that? |
_________________
1987 Westfalia GL |
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do.dah
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 797
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
I would replace the added relay.
They do fail, my family had 2 die from Jay after several years of reliable service.
Cheap and easy to try in any case.
Mark |
BUT, before replacing the relays, tug on the wires going into the relay sockets, make sure they're firmly crimped/attached. |
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tikiman71
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2008
Posts: 90
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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Yes, with key turned I have dash lights, fuel pump hum, and can hear the hard start relay click. I cleaned, inspected, polished, and dielectric greased all the eyelets attached to the starter.
It's such a miserable area to work on and the van is parked in an area of the driveway where I can't jack it up. I have many leads to pursue tonight. The voltage drop and grounding videos I've seen are pretty fascinating. Confidence is slowly being restored... Samba therapy is on-point!
Thanks!
| E1 wrote: |
OKAY!
No apology necessary but exactly what I was wondering…
If you turn the key and get *nothing*, no crank, no dash lights, nothing…
Check the eyelet on the cable attaching to the starter. I had this very thing once, it was a tiny tiny hairline crack on the eyelet, *barrrely visible*, I replaced it after a good six hours’ work stuck in a burger joint parking lot after sleeping there the night before, and VROOM!
If not the eyelet it could surely be the entire cable, the other end of the cable, ot a half-dozen other things.
It is absolutely not the burger’s fault. Never diss that. |
_________________
1987 Westfalia GL
Last edited by tikiman71 on Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8248
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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Dang!
If you try everything, one will work... Some posters above are as good as anyone.
Okay… trying unplugging the connector from the solenoid that originates off the alternator. We’ve had that same problem, too. The connector was original, mostly worked, sometimes not. *Never* happened if warm outside, but only when cold and especially after an overnight.
As hack as it sounds, disconnecting and re-connecting the wire bundle from the ignition switch worked *every time*. Not a real fix, but got us going. Once last Fall after a week’s parking and 40F in the morning, swapping ignition switches even didn’t do it.
I further tightened the negative battery clamp, fired right up.
Somewhere between key and starter is on the edge of “not quite enough.” In our case, it’s been like three different “fixes” to “make it enough.”
People talk tough about fixing “anything” 100 miles from town “the right way,” but until having to constantly do that they have no real idea... doing these things once is not like 50.
The suggestions everyone else is posting are ultimately better than mine. But in the field, I like letting some things drag on to learn on-the-fly fixes, if for no other reason than having to do them in the dirt and the wind and the dust and the cold and the rain wherever the Hell we happen to be.
Best!
_________________
1984 Westfailure/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." — Colin Chapman |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10639
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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| tikiman71 wrote: |
| 2. Remove and wire brush ground strap to trans. Everything shiny as a penny. No change. |
Everything?
That's a lot of work.
Curious how you cleaned all the internal blind threads?
Did they have that typical white corrosion on the threads (between steel and magnesium)?
And did you unbolt the front gearbox mount?
1) Starter body to bellhousing (perhaps OK because you removed/rebolted the starter)
2) bellhousing to main case ( internal blind threads, steel contacting magnesium)
3) main case to gear carrier ( internal blind threads )
4) gear carrier to cover ( internal blind threads )
5) Cover to steel mount ( remove transaxle mount to clean connection )
6) transaxle mount to copper ground strap (easy to clean)
7) copper ground strap to chassis (easy to clean)
All those connections are probably 40 years old, all dissimilar metals, outdoors.
I'm willing to speculate that about 5 of those 7 have never been cleaned in 40 yeaars.
Do you know the procedure to do a "voltage drop test" ( across 1 to 7 )?
That test would tell you,
definitively in about 5 minutes,
if your starter-circuit has high-amperage losses across the transaxle case.
I find it very strange that I am the only one to mention this
------ > on post #15.
All the vans are pushing 40 years, and many vans live outdoors.
This is not "new technnology".
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8248
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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Dave O. mentioned it early on and OP posted this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WMXENKujYtc
Bet the OP would dig the “1 to 7” procedure, though!
_________________
1984 Westfailure/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." — Colin Chapman |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10639
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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OP should dig it.
Plus. diagnosis is invalid without it.
You can get to a solution quicker when the diagnosis is at least.... valid.
E1 did you notice any key parts of the Vanagon start circuit that were not addressed in the video?
We need a similar video... done specifically for a Vanagon.
The basic problem is, everybody thinks:
the positive is important
and
the ground is not.
Even that Video guy.
Elaborate presentation on the positive.
Nothing on the ground.
But if the ground cannot pass exactly the same amperage as the positive,
the starter cannot produce any power.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:37 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8248
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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Did not dig, Baby, or didn’t dig in that far.
Oh Gods Yes on our needing a video!
Know anyone?  
_________________
1984 Westfailure/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." — Colin Chapman |
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tikiman71
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2008
Posts: 90
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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Ok-not quite everything, but I've seen your posts and will be adding some new grounds in the future, in addition to the voltage drop tests--thanks!
I have cleaned the mating surfaces from starter to bellhousing, and some of the other transaxle connections were cleaned/replaced and polished 12+ years ago when the Subaru adapter plate was installed and trans rebuilt. Maybe I get some partial credit for that at least? Ha!
| Sodo wrote: |
| tikiman71 wrote: |
| 2. Remove and wire brush ground strap to trans. Everything shiny as a penny. No change. |
Everything?
That's a lot of work.
Curious how you cleaned all the internal blind threads?
Did they have that typical white corrosion on the threads (between steel and magnesium)?
And did you unbolt the front gearbox mount?
1) Starter body to bellhousing (perhaps OK because you removed/rebolted the starter)
2) bellhousing to main case ( internal blind threads, steel contacting magnesium)
3) main case to gear carrier ( internal blind threads )
4) gear carrier to cover ( internal blind threads )
5) Cover to steel mount ( remove transaxle mount to clean connection )
6) transaxle mount to copper ground strap (easy to clean)
7) copper ground strap to chassis (easy to clean)
All those connections are probably 40 years old, all dissimilar metals, outdoors.
I'm willing to speculate that about 5 of those 7 have never been cleaned in 40 yeaars.
Do you know the procedure to do a "voltage drop test" ( across 1 to 7 )?
That test would tell you,
definitively in about 5 minutes,
if your starter-circuit has high-amperage losses across the transaxle case.
I find it very strange that I am the only one to mention this
------ > on post #15.
All the vans are pushing 40 years, and many vans live outdoors.
This is not "new technnology". |
_________________
1987 Westfalia GL |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10639
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Another no start starting problem. Next troubleshooting steps? |
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| tikiman71 wrote: |
| Ok-not quite everything, but I've seen your posts and will be adding some new grounds in the future, in addition to the voltage drop tests--thanks! |
I am curious why you have embarked on a starter diagnosis without doing these mods first?
There's almost NO cheaper, easier mod.
One cable for $15.
Go all-out and do two cables ($30).
If proper grounds solve your problem, good.
If they do NOT, at least future diagnosis will be valid,
and you will arrive at the solution sooner,
and your van will be that much more reliable in the years ahead.
Starter cranks faster.
Headlights are brighter.
Gear oil doesn't blacken (etc).
There's almost no "better $30" you can spend on a van that's been outdoors for 40 years
and cringes when flatbeds pass by.
======================
I put up this info repeatedly.....with almost ZERO feedback.
No feedback means that I don't know what is missing.
Why aren't people understanding this stuff?
----->Well, because as my brother says "just face it, some people will NEVER understand electricity" (that's me.....to his level)
But I think we can keep a few Vanagons off the flatbed if people will start to understand the Starter circuit.
It's very, very simple, but I don't know what people don't understand, because there's zero feedback.
Likely there is zero feedback because people don't know what they don't understand.
It's a problem. Cat chasing its tail.
| tikiman71 wrote: |
| I have cleaned the mating surfaces from starter to bellhousing, and some of the other transaxle connections were cleaned/replaced and polished 12+ years ago when the Subaru adapter plate was installed and trans rebuilt. Maybe I get some partial credit for that at least? Ha! |
You DO get partial credit. Everyone's a scholar here!
But partial credit delivers partial Amps.
Partial Amps is a failing grade though.........
F for Flatbed.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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