Type 4 engine research project

[888]

Hi all,

I'm looking at buying a 73 bay window that has been sitting for a very long time with a seized engine (said to be original, very hard to see the engine code) and another free turning engine inside. That engine is a CD code which should be an automatic 73 from the references on here. Bus is a manual.

It will be the first Type 4 engine I've really gotten into, I usually work with Type 1 engines.

I've been doing some research on here and came up with the following threads to read through to get familiar with rebuilding a Type 4 engine.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=743948&highlight=

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=503859

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=538136&highlight=

Are there others that I should be reading?

Thanks!
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92 Dodge Cummins D-350
1973 bay window project

[timvw7476]

The Tom Wilson book ' How To Rebuild VW Engines' is The One . Hands Down.
But You've been working on Type I so you are 98% of the way there if your Type I stuff carried you around several years...... lol.

[airschooled]

Doing yourself a disservice if you haven’t read Clatter’s threads- always great insight into the decision making process.

That’s the big one, along with project management. By the time you’re squirting sealant onto the case halves, you’ll have put it together and taken it apart so many times you won’t need the book anymore.

Robbie
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One-on-one tech help for your vintage Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com

Road trip reports and tech blog:
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[SGKent]

if you can do type one you can do type two. A little different but doable. Here is a thread when I last did my 1977.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=724313&highlight=1977
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).

George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."

Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"

[my59]

When I rebuilt mine I reviewed the Wilson book and highlighted everything that pertained to the Type 4 engine before I got into it to remove as much confusion as I could before hand.
I read as many Type 4 rebuild threads as I could find here as well.
Finding a machine shop with Type 4 experience took some time.
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my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget.

[raygreenwood]

Make sure you get and use a dial bore gauge for checking the case main bores. Even if it's a cheap Chinese one it will be fine.

DO NOT automatically align bore the case. I. My experience, 7 out of 10 type 4 cases do not need align bore. Measure it and post what you have.

For example, it's common on well used but not abused....type 4 engines to have kind of a dent in the main bores just off axis from the case centerline. It can be as deep as 0.002" and not be an issue.....as long as that 0.002" dent (usually put there from the combustion/ignition point in the rotation).....does not span more than about 20°....about 2/3 of the distance between say 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 on a clo k face the diameter of the crank bore......the new bearings will not even notice that tiny dip.

It's hard to get good and accurate align bores on type 4. Always has been. It's even harder to get new oversized OD bearings that are uniform. Ray

[888]

Thanks for the responses, guys. I did have an aircooled Vanagon engine apart some years ago but I was rebuilding what was there, and not into heavy analysis. I have forgotten most of whatever I learned.

Ray, I read some of your responses in a few of the threads and I have quite a few measuring devices, mag base with .0005" resolution indicator. I have dial and digital calipers and manual micrometers of various sizes, and should have some manual bore gauges to use with micrometers. I think they should work for what I need to do, if not, I will find a set with a dial. Most are Mitutoyo or some other decent quality brand. I accumulated all of this when I had Type 1's that I sold when I decided I was done with beetles a year ago and started looking for a bus.

I didn't use them much on the beetles but I use them at work. I spent 35 years working with complex machinery...not a toolmaker, but pretty decent with metrology and figuring out things. Both of my sons are toolmakers so they should have whatever I don't.

I'll check into the recommended book. I have a Bentley and Haynes manual for every flavor of VW other than a 411.

The bus for sale is actually listed on here, it's an orange 73 in Ohio. I no longer do sight unseen buys due to so many disappointments and this is nearby so I can see it for myself and know what it is.

Being in Ohio, it's easier to deal with mechanicals than to fix rust and this one is pretty solid. It will never be a show vehicle but it has some character and isn't eaten up with rust so so I'm going to try to swing a deal.

More to come (and probably another build thread).

Thanks again.
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92 Dodge Cummins D-350
1973 bay window project

[888]

I bought the bus, will get it home this weekend or first of the week, more to come.
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92 Dodge Cummins D-350
1973 bay window project

[SGKent]

enjoy. Just remember that it is a journey and not a destination.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).

George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."

Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"

[TomWesty]

[SGKent]

[888]

The bus is home, the spare engine that was inside is out and on a cart for disassembly.

I've soaked all of the engine fasteners down with a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF to hopefully help loosen them up for disassembly.

I have a loft to build in the barn so I can get my floor space back but after that, I'll be ready to start seeing what surprises the engine has for me.

I've already discovered that it has oil in it so I guess that is a good thing.

More to follow

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92 Dodge Cummins D-350
1973 bay window project

[888]

As you can see in the photo in the previous post, the "good" engine in the back was an automatic so it still has the drive plate attached. I've never worked on an engine from a VW automatic before.

I have the triple square bit for the bolts to the crank but looking for a way to keep the crank from turning.

The Type 2 Bentley shows some sort of a fixture. Doing a search on here, I've found a reference to tool LR000133 from vwparts.net on an old thread but the link is dead.

Does anyone know where to find one, what they look like, or is making something from angle iron or bar stock to span two holes in the drive plate usually enough to get the drive plate off?

Thanks
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92 Dodge Cummins D-350
1973 bay window project

[orwell84]

Goes well with an impact wrench. Engines are otherwise the same.

[888]

Well, those drive plate bolts have been putting up quite a fight.

So far, I've thrown all of this at them and they haven't budged.

Last effort will be recruiting my 6'7" son to help with a longer pipe on a breaker but then it becomes an issue if I'm strong enough to provide enough counterforce to keep it on the cart:)

Hopefully, I don't have to split the case and give up on the crankshaft.

More to come.

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92 Dodge Cummins D-350
1973 bay window project

[Abscate]

Heat cool heat cool heat cool and then impact with a good quality bit not bought at a junk store

Torque is not the answer to stuck bolts
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[888]

Thanks for the response. I will look for my propane torch.

I tried the Milwaukee impact with a good quality bit after dosing with acetone and ATF a few times and letting it soak. That combination has gotten absolutely everything else I've run into loose in the past, I'm really surprised it hasn't worked here.

The engine spins when I use the impact, thus the spanner bar. It's difficult to keep the impact in the bolt and hold the spanner by myself, thus recruiting my son for help.

I figured while he was here we would try the breaker bar and pipe.

Did VW happen use a threadlocker on these bolts?
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92 Dodge Cummins D-350
1973 bay window project

[raygreenwood]

As Abscate said....heat cool/heat cool...cycles.

Heat them up and when they are hot.....carefully....dribble the acetone/ATF mix on the bolt. The heat causes expansion. As the acetone/ATF hits it, in that split second it quenched and shocks the joint between bolt and crank and over a few cycles slowly wicks ATF into the microscopic surface texture.

Also as he noted....IMPACT is key. If you do not have a really gutsy Impact wrench, a hand Impact driver....1/2" drive in this case with a 5 lb sledge hand hammer has really worked well for getting these moving.

When doing that, get a stack of stout wood and blocks. Tilt the case up vertical so the drive plate is up in the air and horizontal. Block it securely. If you buy an Impact driver with that red nylon guard it's safer but the best brand of Impact driver I have ever had is the Lisle brand #30750 for the set. #30000 for just the driver.

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/lisle-30750-ha...0zEALw_wcB

Ray

[soissisc]

I like to have the engine on the floor, with the bar supported by the floor, and a pipe on the breaker bar also applying force down towards the floor. Before you try to break it free, tap on the bolt at least 50 times with the socket on the head of the bolt and hitting the socket with a good 2 or 5 lbs hammer. This method may twist the head of the bolt off though, buyer beware.
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Mark

68 Westy
92 Jetta (oh it is retired)
99 Eurovan
05 NBC
06 Audi A3
72 Westy (I am going to fix it up)

[lil-jinx]

those bolts probably has lock tite on them ,heating to about 700f will break the lock tite,it,s unlikely that the bolts are frozen from corrosion,
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620186
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1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy sold dec 2024

1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes.